Jim Engh's version of Stonehenge; #12 at Fossil Trace GC

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike Sweeney;

I'm hoping to get down to Kinloch very soon.  Thanks for posting the picture.

Generally, I'm not a fan of "aerial cops".  Perhaps it goes back to my hoops days and my impressive 2" vertical leap.  

I also used to play my high-school golf on a course that featured a 40 foot high maple tree directly front and center and about 20 yards short of the green on a 165 yard par three.  

Perhaps I just don't like rejection.  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Matt,

I think anyone's analysis from photos may be worthy, particularly if they show some integrity and intelligence in field of architecture in general.  I certainly do not think it should be censored or dismissed.  It is a part of the conversation.  However, in the interest of abiding by GCA rules I have removed all my comments from this thread since I have not played the course, or seen it firsthand.  This place is not as much fun now, I hope you don't make the 1000 posters cut!

[Mike_Cirba]

I haven't played it...

Should I delete my posts too?

[Matt_Ward]

Kelly:

Woooooooooooooo -- I never said they should be censored or dismissed. Nice try Kelly -- but don't stuff words into my mouth. I'll be glad to do that myself.

What I said is that people are making pronouncements on the quality of the hole simply from pictures and NOT from a personal observation through a playing of the hole. That's a big time difference -- I know some people don't like to make visits because it requires some time and energy. It's just too E-Z to throw comments forward.

I never said comments can't come from people -- but you as an architect should know better that a personal visit is where you actually take "outside" comments and provide an insider perspective. I never said insider comments are 100%
correct -- but when people start throwing comments only from the comfort of their home bound counch that's a big time stretch for me. Maybe for you that's OK.

Just for curiosity Kelly -- when you decide upon restaurants do you simply look at an ad in a magazine / newspaper and simply assume the food is good or bad? Geeeeze, forgive me --I actually thought personal research -- the playing kind -- is what really adds to the discussion. Not conjecture or left field analysis. But then again -- I must be wrong to believe that first hand investigative research is meaningful. Forgive me for believing that.

 

What's so novel in saying that someone who has played the place might have a better sense than someone who is simply reviewing pictures.

[A_Clay_Man]

It was I that used the word dismissed. For the record I have not been there either, but I sure won't judge it, till I do.

I enjoy the exercise of "trying" to get a realistic feel from a photo. I just hoe that soemone who has golfed said hole/course will chime in to better explain the reality.

[Mike_Cirba]

I now understand and will temper my approach accordingly;

Let me try anew...

WOW!!  What cool rocks!!  

For those of you who have actually played the course, I have a few questions about them;

1) Are they hard?
2) Do golf balls carom meaninglessly in every direction when struck against them?
3) Are they tall?  I can't tell.
4) Are they really in the way of the hole as they appear...like...in the middle of the fairway?
5) How wide are they?
6) Do you have to call your shots for them to count?

 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
My first impression of the photos was that of a giant pinball machine and that the tee markers should be flippers, but....
The photos show naturally occuring rock formations that are site specific. I don't see any problem with using the naturally occurring features of a site, such as these columns, and they should be assessed in the context in which they are used.
My impression of them is that they are not transportable, they aren't features that would work everywhere, but look good in their present location. I think they should be judged as such. They don't look boring.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

You're quite observant ... the rocks are simply native to that particular site. They weren't shipped in to be some sort of Great Adventure type hole!

When I played the hole there is plenty of leeway given the player to avoid them and I see them no differently than water hazards, OB and the like.

Clearly, the features would not work everywhere and given the site's historic purpose the rocks do fit in for Fossil Trace.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

So if they were "shipped in", ala Shadow Creek, then you wouldn't like them?  

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

There you go ...

P.S. Mike, I've always wondered how one of the greatest "engineered" courses in all the world gets all the fanfare as being a great course -- I'm speaking about Shadow Creek! I give them high marks for creating something from nothing but where are the holes that make up such a lofty assessment?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Mike Sweens,
You had to go throw the "K" word (kids) into it didn't you! I can't use that excuse, and in a George Constanza-kind of way, I can't think of many better.

Mike Cirbs,
Looking back, who was I fooling? Your politcally correct verve still remains out of my grasp.

Matt & Adam,
Your right. I haven't played it and you guys have. But still, I would rather look for fossils then play golf on a course like this. It reminds me of something I've seen on the cover of a Early 70's YES album. (No offense to Roger Dean)

Speaking of which, were you guys taking bong hits while playing this thing?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Mr. Moran -

TCC stands for "The Country Club", as in their little sign that reads

The Country Club
A.D. 1882

I am on an anti-abbreviation crusade for this site, so keep questioning this practice!

Mr. Moran -

A.D.  Stands for "After Death".

Just trying to do my part in keeping with your theme Mr. Moore

[SPDB]

Daryl - Are you serious?

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

I wasn't smoking anything partner when I played Fossil Trace. Truth be told -- the layout is well done because the back side is really on a compact piece of property and I believe Jim Engh did quite well overall.

The hole in question -- the 12th -- needs to be played to be fully appreciated. If one were to look at the stones / rocks simply on photos alone I can fully understand how people might draw the conclusions that they do.

Hats off to Engh and the town of Golden for bringing forward a very interesting and fun layout -- P.S. -- when I finished the round I ordered a Manhattan "on the rocks."

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Daryl - Are you serious?

Sure I am!!

I thought it was a little funny that someone would come on to post that they are "on an anti-abbreviation crusade for this site" and then turn right around and use an abbreviation in that same thread.  Just poking a little good-natured fun.

[SPDB]

Daryl - I was referring to your definition of A.D., which is an acronym for anno Domini (latin - year of our lord).  Had never heard of After Death, and I'm not certain what "A[fter] D[eath] 1882" would signify - after whose death?

Acronymically yours,

SPDB  

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

after whose death?
SPDB  

I had always heard of A.D. as After Death refering to that "C" guy that they named "B.C." for (and I dont mean the comic strip).

Since it has been a little while since I had any Latin classes (like never) I had heard B.C. refered to as Before Christ, and A.D. refered to as After Death.

I have actually also heard quite commonly of A.D. referring to Active Duty in the Military, but I assumed that wasnt what T.C.C meant.

P.S., I.M.H.O. it is getting late in the P.M. and unless I can come up with any more abbreviations P.D.Q., I guess I better get running and get off G.C.A.  A.S.A.P.  I am busy watching U.N.C. vs. U.T. in the N.C.A.A. tournament on C.B.S.

L.O.L.

XOXOXO,
Daryl

[Brian Phillips]

Daryl,

You need to look up A.D. in your dictionary...

Brian

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Brian,

F.Y.I.

I already did look it up after SPDB's first post, I never doubted that he was correct, but that doesnt change the fact that I had heard of it the other way, and already made the post the other way.  He asked me whose death and I told him whose death.  O.K.?

I guess I could have gone back and modified the original post, but I thought that wouldn't make much sense.

Your LATIN Lover,
D.K.B.

p.s. I probably would have learned that had a) W.H.S. offered Latin classes or b) I not had A.D.D. back then and C.R.S. now!

[T_MacWood]

I think Jim Engh should be given encouragement. This maybe the first time he has left something natural (and not molded it like one huge ball playdo) within the playing confines of his design.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Matt:  Would these rocks come into play for the high handicapper?  

I wonder why this hole gets crucified, but similar holes by Strantz are praised?

[A_Clay_Man]

Tommy- I mentioned I had yet to visit this course.

Tom Macwood- I believe Mr. Engh used a wonderful cader on his favorite hole at Redlands Mesa.

[T_MacWood]

PeteB
I don't think so....Strantz's rock strewn Tot Hill Farm was evicerated on GCA.

AdamC
What is a wonderful cader....the totally blind par-3 at Aberdovey?

[Matt_Ward]

Pete:

The reality is that people who are not long off the tee and are say 10-20 handicaps will find the hole quite entertaining and fun to play. You clearly can't hook the ball because the rocks to come into play then -- it would be no different if the rocks were OB posts or a H20 hazard.

The second shot is really less of a problem as long you make sure you keep it to the right so that your approach angle is maximized.

The demanding thing about the hole is that long hitters can get home in two but the second shot must be swung around the rocks on th eleft with a slight draw and still be able to clear a few bunkers that guard the left front.

Here's a case where the picture of a hole doesn't speak to the playing dynamics. People who lob grenades against Jim Engh should do so AFTER they have played his design -- not before.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Matt:

Thanks for the reply.  Personally, I actually like boulders/rocks as centerline hazards, ala #15 (?) at Sherwood.

Can't really tell from the pic, but it looks to me that the boulders surrounding the green are not very close to the greensite.  That's my big beef with Tot Hill, even though most people told me that the rocks weren't in play (I assure you that they are).

Count me in the camp that wants to play this course when in the area.