Top 5 Old Tom Morris

[Nick_Ficorelli]

This should be good.

[Brian_Gracely]

(in no particular order)

Muirfield
Royal County Down
Royal Dornoch
Nairn
Prestwick

[Brian Phillips]

Brian,

Muirfield is nothing like the Old Tom Morris course and shouldn't really be used in your list.  It is now really classed as a Colt and Simpson course.

Many of the new holes that were routed by Colt were on new land that Morris did not have access to when he routed the course.

I hope you are joking about Royal Dornoch as well...

Brian.

[Brian_Gracely]

BrianP,

Ok, I can understand that logic.  But in that vein, should we talk about Oakland Hills as being a Ross course anymore?  

[James Edwards]

Heres my list..

Machrihanish
Leven Links
Lundin Links
Nairn
Wallasey

[Paul_Turner]

Nothing of Old Tom left at RCD.

[ForkaB]

Brian

I think there still is a lot of OTM at Dornoch, including the greens at 3, 4, 5, 14, 15, 16 and 18.  Even if that is all (which I thnk not), it ain't a bad legacy!

[Paul_Turner]

Rich

The OTM holes at RCD had more than a hint of Painswick's 5th and 10th...you know those blind par 3s over dunes to punchbowl greens.

Is The Dell at Lahinch an Old Tom hole?

[James Edwards]

Paul,

In 1927 Mackenzie was asked to inspect the course and he transformed it into it's basic routing.  He moved all the holes across the road to the large sandhills near the sea and left only one original Morris hole, todays 6th - The Dell.  Was then the 4th.

Cheers
J

[ForkaB]

Paul

Much as I admire the current version, I'd love to see some pictures of OTM's version of RCD.  My copy of the World Atlas of Golf shows 6-8 "ghost holes" within today's routing.  That would have been a really col golf course, I think.

[Marty Bonnar]

...and one of my VERY favourite OTM holes - and not a bunker in sight!



The green sits atop a 15ft high plateau...luvverly!

FBD.

[ForkaB]

Martin

I've only played there once (and had to use Google to identify it from your post), but who cannot love a 350 yarder that is the #1 handicap hole?!

I'll be playing there (hopefully) in the Scottish Seniors in August.  Wanna caddy?

Rich(ard)

[Marty Bonnar]

Mr G,
It would be a pleasure and a great honour to tote your sticks for you! Count me in! Looping for you would be somewhat akin to carrying the clubs of the Dalai Lama himself (big hitter, the lama...)

The hole plan does no justice to the real thing here. If you remember, the drive can be thrashed up the right side, but gives no real advantage. The best play is big left, toying with the stream. The green is sooooo elevated, however, that it requires a PERFECT approach, and nothing less, no matter where you're coming in from.....zipahdeedoodah!

For our other brethren, this is the Alyth Golf Club, a course in a tiny town in deepest Tayside(or is it Angus?). Check their website - some nice pics and chat. Worth tearing yourselves away from the 'Links' the next time you're over here...

FBD.

[Brian_Ewen]

FBD / Rich
As a fellow lover of Alyth , just interested what holes can be contributed to Old Tom and what holes to James Braid ?.

Also what is your thoughts on the 6th hole ? , played in the Alyth Open last year and the greens were as fast as I have ever seen them here , the severe slope on the 6th green had a lot of golfers frustrated and complaing that the green was unfair .

Brian

[Lloyd_Cole]

Rich, Martin,
Given the life expectancy being low up there, what with the smoking, razor gangs and all, could 43 get in??

I think I might be over there

Cheers

L

Martin

I've only played there once (and had to use Google to identify it from your post), but who cannot love a 350 yarder that is the #1 handicap hole?!

I'll be playing there (hopefully) in the Scottish Seniors in August.  Wanna caddy?

Rich(ard)

[Lloyd_Cole]

Rich

Hate to be the pedant, but, correct me if I'm wrong, I think you missed one of the 1s on the SI.. and yes I'd love to see a 350 Stroke 1, too.

Martin

I've only played there once (and had to use Google to identify it from your post), but who cannot love a 350 yarder that is the #1 handicap hole?!

I'll be playing there (hopefully) in the Scottish Seniors in August.  Wanna caddy?

Rich(ard)

[ForkaB]

http://domain373868.sites.fasthosts.com/course/scorecards.htm

Lloyd

I was going off the scorecard (see link above) which has the 5th as the 11 HCP for the ladies tees (239 yards), but #1 for the men's.  I plan to play from the men's tees when I am next there!

Unfortunately, the age requirement for the Scottish Seniors is still 55, which means that you have a ways to go.  However, if the rest of the country goes the way of Shettleston (a recent survey put their average age of male morbidity at 56!), the field may thin out in the years to come......

Do let me know when you're going to be over, however and maybe you, me, Martin and A. N. Other can get a game.

Martin

Is there no value at all at bombing it over the stream to the right (if you feel like making 240-250 yard carries on the day)?  Also, thanks for the offer to loop.  My caddies usually experience total unsconsciousness, often during the round, so I've got that going for me.......

Brian

I can't really remember the course that much as it was 15 years or so ago and I was playing with a friend whose primary goal during a round of golf is to get back into the bar as quckily as possible.  Hope to learn more later this year.

[Brian Phillips]

Brian

I think there still is a lot of OTM at Dornoch, including the greens at 3, 4, 5, 14, 15, 16 and 18.  Even if that is all (which I thnk not), it ain't a bad legacy!

I agree that a number of the greens are original.  Although the 18th is played backwards to how it was played in 1892!  Maybe increases the greatness of OTM!!

OTM 'laid out 9 proper holes' and improved on the existing nine holes that were in place did he not?

I can't locate both the third and fourth greens on the 1892 plan with the existing plan.  I can understand one of them being the old 5th and the 'new' fifth being the old 6th maybe.
Could you help me there..?

Brian

[ForkaB]

Brian

You are years behind me, and ahead of me at the same time!  The earliest plan I know of is the one in the clubhouse which is 1906 or so.  I'd love to see the 1892 plan, and then we can talk.  Can you bring a copy to Painswick?

My understanding is the OTM laid out 9 "proper holes" and then Sutherland expanded them to 18.  Perhaps I was premature in assigning all those hole to OTM.

See you in May.

Rich(ard)

[Paul_Turner]

I've played Alyth, but when I was about 12 and can't remember anything about it other than it was a very pleasant surprise.  I remember my Dad really liking it too.  Good to read that our instincts were right.  A Top 20 inland course of Scotland?

[Brian Phillips]

Rich,

All the info I have looked at is from the book I bought in the Pro shop 'A History of The Royal Dornoch Golf Club 1877-1999'

How accurate it is I have no idea but here are a few things that I scanned;







Cheers,

Brian

[ForkaB]

Thanks, Brian

As far as I can make out, the 1892 routing in terms of greensites still exists, as follows:

1892 Routing-->Current Routing

2-->2 (maybe, think it was moved slightly)
4-->17
5-->3
6-->4
7-->12 (maybe, think it was moved slightly)
9-->14
10-->15
11-->16
12-->18

13-->1 (Struie)
15-->4 (Struie)
16-->17 (Struie)
17-->18 (Struie)

A few notes:

1.  I've seen old pictures of 4 (1892)/17 today and it was a square green of no more than 4000 square feet.  Today the green is wild and huge (15,000 square feet +).  Wonder how it evolved....

2.  14 (1892) would have been as close to a copy of the 1st at TOC that I have ever seen.  In the 80's, it used to play in the same direction, but at about 185 yards.

3.  The old 18 is now (most of) the putting green.

4.  Robin Hiseman seems to think that the old 15 was OTM. If so, maybe most of his "new" holes were on the
Struie" lowlands.  If so, whoever designed the original 9 holes must have been some sort of idiot savant!