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BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #25 on: March 18, 2004, 10:14:25 AM »
Tom Huckaby -

To each his own. I understand.

Bob

THuckaby2

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #26 on: March 18, 2004, 10:16:36 AM »
Bob:

As do I understand and admire those who seek historical accuracy.  I was a history major in college oh so long ago!

I just do believe in heroes, and think that now more than ever, we really need them.

TH

T_MacWood

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #27 on: March 18, 2004, 10:31:04 AM »
We are all human. We all have strengths and weaknesses. I find the weaknesses as interesting and enlightning as the strengths. IMO it isn't useful to ignore a person's weaknesses even if their strengths are significant. If you ignore those weaknesses, you will get an inacurate idea of history....the pieces will never fit together. What is the old saying about ignoring history...I'd say same is true when it comes to misrepresenting or inacurately portraying or ignoring part of history.

As an example is it useful to paint these hard drinking architects only in a romantic light without pointing out how it may have contributed to their personal/professional downfall.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2004, 10:34:05 AM by Tom MacWood »

Carlyle Rood

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #28 on: March 18, 2004, 10:32:57 AM »
Gentlemen, there aren't any dark secrets regarding Jones.  He was one of the most courageous and principled persons of all-time.

I think this criticism regarding civil rights should be put to rest.  It's well documented, by acquaintences of all races, that Bobby Jones treated every human being he met with the same courtesy.

I think one of the greatest criticisms--that an African-American was never offered a special exemption to the Masters--was actually predicated on his unequivocal, equal treatment of every human being.  He simply wanted every American to qualify on their terms.

Jones has been roundly criticized because he could have "advanced the game" for minorities inviting an African-American to the Masters.  I think this assertion is remarkably unfair for a number of reasons.

To begin with, while most other tournaments in the United States invoked caucasion-only clauses to prohibit minorities from participating in their tournaments, the Masters was actually one of the few tournaments with explicit rules to ensure a qualifying minority could participate.  Jones was sending a message: Qualify and you're in, regardless of your ethnicity.

Secondly, I think Jones may have recognized how important it was for a minority to qualify for the Masters rather than making an exception for invitation.  I would suggest that Lee Elder earning his invitation to the Masters was far more beneficial to minority growth in golf than if he'd simply been invited.  Understand that when Elder arrived in Augusta to play in the Masters, he didn't stand on the first tee as an exception.  Instead, he stood there as an EQUAL.  I think Jones would have been very pleased with that and its unfortunate that he passed away before he could see it.

Lastly, the principle reason that Jones is often perceived as a prejudiced, white, Southern autocrat is because he is (a) white, and (b) Southern.  The presumption is that because he grew up in an era where racism was rampant in the South, and because he was white, he must therefore be a racist.  The fact that this sort of conclusion depends on its own foundation of ignorance and racism is lost on most critics; but, it's patently unfair.  Jones shouldn't be criticized for the sins of his peers.

It is my firm belief that Bobby Jones was a fair and decent man to every person he encountered.  And I believe a balanced, unprejudiced, and fair evaluation of his behavior supports that belief.

TEPaul

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #29 on: March 18, 2004, 10:41:03 AM »
TomH:

Interesting post of yours. I'm not sure you're getting the gist of what I'm driving at here. Sure heros and the idea of them have some worth--maybe even plenty of it. But we all would do better, in my opinion, if we lived in and understood the real world with all its warts--and most particularly of our heros that sometimes generate our ideals.

As my old man used to tell me when I won a golf tournament or something or did something he thought very positive---"they can never take that away from you", the same things are true of Jones magnified many many fold.

What he did, what he was in the public forum is well known and very documented. The things that he went through on that journey to get to that glorious point define the man, make his journey and his place in history the more interesting and the more powerful for all of us to understand and emulate in some small way if we want to try to do that.

Being more aware of any dark side Jones may have ever had serves that purpose better, in my opinion, it in no way tarnishes his character or reputation in the end and if someone thinks or claims that it does or should, I, for one, would advise them that they must think they live in a rose colored world or should! Basically that's nonsense to me--none of us live in rose colored worlds--at least I hope not!

Matter of fact, the dark side or problems along the way that're overcome in one way or another make a hero or potential one like Jones even greater heros. In my opinion there's nothing on earth as powerful and as potentially important as redemption!

I have no interest at all in seeming to drag Jones or his reputation down in some way and trying to get at the unadulterated truth of his life I can't see could possibly do that. But I don't know if or what that side of his life may have been--but I suspect it would only be interesting to know.

I've been for many decades a real student of physiognamy--I truly believe in it as an accurate indicator and my strong, strong sense of Jones, athough I never met him---I've only seen photos and moving film of him---if he was anything he most definitely was not a phony--the very thing too many of our heros and sports heros were or are!

If Bob Crosby uncovers something about Jones I'd love to know what it is and I have no fear it would tarnish the man--it might even make him greater in my mind and the minds of others--it would probably just make him a more realistic hero for some of us to emulate---and I think it would, at the very least, make him even more interesting!
« Last Edit: March 18, 2004, 10:47:28 AM by TEPaul »

THuckaby2

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #30 on: March 18, 2004, 10:53:23 AM »
Messrs. MacWood and Paul:

I guess what I fear are REALLY dark secrets, that WOULD tarnish the man.  If it's just more things that he had to overcome, well that would just make him more heroic!  So yes, I would be interested in that as well.

I just do feel strongly that put under intense scrutiny, ANY man is going to have certain failings that tarnish his reputation.. and it's magnified exponentially for a golfing god like Jones.

Oh believe me, I admire the work Bob Crosby and others are doing re Jones.  And he is a hero to me, so if it's ever published, I'll have a very hard time NOT reading it.  I tend to devour everything out there about the man....

I just don't want to be disappointed.  I have too much of that already re today's sports stars... I just got over trying to explain to my Giants-worshipping 5 year old son why people are saying the things they are about Barry Bonds.. and it's not fun.

People need heroes.  Even grown-up little kids like me.

And we need them more than we need historical accuracy, in my mind.  Now more than ever, as the world spirals out of control.

But perhaps this is just me.

TH


A_Clay_Man

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #31 on: March 18, 2004, 10:55:21 AM »
I'd speculate he was conflicted to the core, as many are. Living in the south and practicing law, he had to have the dychotmy shoved in his face daily. Then to have his baby, ANGC, run by Roberts, had to be a significant personal obstacle to treat as "just a game".

BCrosby

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #32 on: March 18, 2004, 10:59:03 AM »
Carlyle -

I don't disagree with a word you wrote. Jones was a good, decent, fair man.

My only point was that during an important historical moment in Jones's hometown, some wealthy, powerful members of the white establishment took some risks they didn't need to take. In an ideal world, I would have hoped that Jones - an influencial man of real intelligence - would have lent them his support.

Jones is a hero of mine too. I expect him to be heroic all the time. Perhaps I am asking too much...

Bob
 





 

Mike Hendren

  • Total Karma: -1
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #33 on: March 18, 2004, 11:02:00 AM »
From 1923 to 1930 Jones won 13 of the 21 national championships he played in (62%).

During that time he won 5 of 8 U. S. Amateurs with one runner-up.

He won 1 of the 2 British Amateurs he played in.

In his last 12 U. S. Opens he won 7 times and was runner-up 4 times.  

In 1926 became the first player to win the U. S. and British Amateurs in the same year.

1930 speaks for itself.

What is this Eldrick kid's last name?

Mike

Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

TEPaul

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #34 on: March 18, 2004, 11:06:39 AM »
"And we need them more than we need historical accuracy, in my mind.  Now more than ever, as the world spirals out of control."

TomH:

Never--absolutely NEVER! No one needs historical accuracy skewed in the name of rose-colored and unreal heros! Just NEVER. Probably one of the primary reasons our world seems to be spiraling out of control to some extent is for the very reason that too damn many people think they need to live in rose colored unreal worlds and continously foster that perception that that's the way it is and should be. That's not right---it's not real! I never thought I'd say this again, but what you need is a good dose of that admonishment Jack Nickelson delievered in "A Few Good Men".

"Son, you can't handle the truth!"


T_MacWood

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #35 on: March 18, 2004, 11:07:31 AM »
TH
Do you think you showed good judgment in allowing your kid to worship Bonds--his reputation (being kind) is mixed? Perhaps your rose colored pollyannish history ignoring outlook has doomed you to repeat the mistakes of the past.

THuckaby2

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #36 on: March 18, 2004, 11:16:26 AM »
TEP:

Yep, I can't handle the truth.  Not about heroes whose last great achievement was about 60 years ago... They can lie in peace, and let us who wish to do so remember them as we want to.

Because we do need heroes, and there are sadly few today.

Even if they are fictitious, well... I still think we need them more than some "truth."

You tell me, Tom:  is it better that my son think of Barry Bonds as a steroid-abusing cheater, or as a great hitter?  The news is full of the former, and sadly devoid of the latter.  Oh believe me, I am trying like hell to steer him toward seemingly more honorable heroes like Cal Ripken, but his reality is all Bonds, all the time.  There is so much damn sadness and tragedy in the world... is it so wrong to have a hero without flaw, even if it's not true?  Is it so wrong to have something to believe in, even if it's fictitious?

Nope, I can't handle the truth.  Neither can my son.  We see WAY too much of it as it is, as the news shows a man gunning down a house full of his offspring conceived through incest... Please forgive us if we want to believe Barry Bonds is a great hitter, even if the adult rational mind would see it differently.  Please forgive me if I want to focus on the greatness of Jones, and forgive him his weaknesses.

I've had enough of the truth.  Nope, I can't handle it - you have me pegged.

TH




THuckaby2

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #37 on: March 18, 2004, 11:21:59 AM »
TH
Do you think you showed good judgment in allowing your kid to worship Bonds--his reputation (being kind) is mixed? Perhaps your rose colored pollyannish history ignoring outlook has doomed you to repeat the mistakes of the past.

Tom - as I said in a post that just crossed, I am certainly NOT "allowing" my son to worship Barry Bonds - I am trying like hell to steer him to better role models.  But here in the Bay Area, for a kid anyway, it's tough not to see Bonds - he's everywhere.  And the Giants are my son's team, for better or for worse.  How do you tell a kid that his hero is more flawed than he'll ever know?  Can he not have some innocence, for awhile anyway?

He'll find out for himself about Bonds soon enough, I'm sure.  For a brief shining time, if he wants to believe Bonds is a great hitter and that's all that matters, well... that's OK with me.

And Tom, easy on the overgeneralizations, OK?  This is not any general outlook on life I have... it's just about very certain very special heroes.  I'm not nearly as pollyanaish as this would all seem to imply.  

I just see so much bad, it's hard to find the good.  And if I find such in the past, well... I'm fine to leave it as is.

That's it.

TH


Bob_Huntley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #38 on: March 18, 2004, 12:06:19 PM »
The two writers that seem to have more insight into Jones later life are Charles Price, now deceased,and Sidney Matthew. Price was there in his office putting the cigarette into a hole in a tennis ball, the only way Jones could hold on without pain. Matthew's books are more adulatory but he knows his stuff. The Jones' memorablila at East Lake C.C. belongs to Sidney.

I am particularly interested in the civil rights issue. Mention is made of some prominent Atlanta industrialists being supportive of MLK. All of them were in much better health than Jones during the time in question and who is to know what he did, or did not do in regard to easing the problems of the South. It is so easy for a person who is not from an area where discrimination is not de rigeur, to cast aspersions upon those who appear to do nothing. I spent a year in South Africa in the mid-fifties and found the apartheid regime to be cruel and dehumanising. Did I go public with my feelings? No,why? To do so would have probably put me in jail. I could in my own way show ordinary human decency to those unfortunates that were part of my life.

I returned to Rhodesia where there was was a movement for racial harmony...... which in retrospect, post Mugabe, seems like a pipe dream.

To dredge up these post facto images of a dark side is just so much horse s**t.  

TEPaul

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #39 on: March 18, 2004, 12:19:30 PM »
For God's sake will you listen to this pollyana--aka Tom Huckaby?!

You're damn straight your son ought to realize and understand Bonds is a steroid riddled athlete if that's what he is! I have zero interest in Baaaseball so I really don't know what the deal is with Bonds--and frankly don't care. If people like you and later your son bury your heads in the sand and avoid completely the truth when in the hell will some of the unattractive stuff end in this world?

Nothing pisses me off more than somebody who sees something bad and acts like it didn't happen at all! But if you get depressed by the prevalence of murder or incest on the TV or radio then turn it off and look at the bright side because there really is plenty of joy in this world too, you know.

I believe in heros too but real ones. If Jones overcame whatever he did to get to the point he did it makes him a better more valuable hero and more emulatable in my mind. Do you know what I'm referring to when I mention redemption Tom?

If you don't stop this burying your head in the sand to the truth or looking at the world through rose-colored glasses you're gonna end up like Reagan who tried to congratulate some instant hero who saved people out of the Potomac after an airline crash by comparing him to a real hero of WW2 only to have his press secretary have to tell him that person he was referring to was nothing more than some fictional character in a B-grade war movie!  ;)

I hate to say this but if you can't handle historical accuracy I feel you as a serious contributor to a website like this starts to diminish--maybe even severely. Don't we want to strive for historical accuracy on here, warts and all, or do we want to do what some accuse us of which is looking at some of this through rose-colored glasses and avoiding the reality of things if they don't fit into our ideals? I just have a very hard time understanding why someone can't handle historical accuracy!

« Last Edit: March 18, 2004, 12:23:55 PM by TEPaul »

THuckaby2

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #40 on: March 18, 2004, 12:30:19 PM »
Easy, TEP.  Again, it's just in very special circumstances that I can live without absolute historical accuracy.  In general, I am all in favor of that.  Also, nowhere have I ever said we should see something bad and ignore it - please do read more carefully.  I guess I ought to clarify this again:  in the case of certain special heroes and only in the case of certain special heroes, and for five year olds for whom keeping some innocence can't possibly be a bad thing, it seems to me my approach makes sense.

BTW, when have I ever claimed to be a serious contributor to this web site?  
 ;D

TH
« Last Edit: March 18, 2004, 12:34:50 PM by Tom Huckaby »

TEPaul

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #41 on: March 18, 2004, 12:34:16 PM »
As that telephone operator used to say on "Laugh In"--

"Oh never mind!"

Mike Benham

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #42 on: March 18, 2004, 12:40:25 PM »
Tom - as I said in a post that just crossed, I am certainly NOT "allowing" my son to worship Barry Bonds - I am trying like hell to steer him to better role models.  

Tom -

I would like to clarify your statement in regards to sports and role models.  I hope (and think) you will agree ...

When I hear that athletes are suppose to be role models I cringe - how can a kid or an adult pattern their life after someone they don't even know.  You get 15 seconds of highlights on Sportscenter, or watch a game, or watch them play golf at the Masters.  

Do we really know what Tiger Woods is like when he is not on the course?  He could have a nasty habit of kicking his dog every time he misses a green, or he smokes pot, or takes steroids (there is no drug testing on the Tour and he has put on a few pounds of muscle over the past few years).

As you said Tom, you want to remember Jones for what he did for the game of golf, he is a hero.  Would you consider him a role model?  Maybe on the golf course but I hope not in the way he lived his life, not that he did anything wrong, just that you don't know the details of his life.

I dislike the word role model with athletes.  Let's find a new word.  I want kids to respect Barry Bonds for the way he swings the bat and Cal Ripken for the way he played the game, I do not want kids to have athletes as role models for their personal lives.  Keep it between the lines as one could say (or on the short grass for a GCA connection).

You know as well as I, the best role model in life for your kids, is you and your SCU bride and your immediate families (even the ones that went to USD).

Mike
 
"... and I liked the guy ..."

THuckaby2

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #43 on: March 18, 2004, 12:51:51 PM »
Mike:

I do agree with all of that.  Very well said.  Especially the last part.   ;D

Of course another part of this is that I surely need to steer my son toward the proper team full of heroes, MY TEAM, the Dodgers.  But alas and alack he is a Bay Area boy.

Listen, I don't mean to make too much out of this, I really don't.  And Mike your words are dead perfect right on - neither I, nor my son if I have any say, treat these guys as role models.  SPORTS heroes, yes.  Admire their accomplishments, yes.  But role models?  No, for just the reasons you say.

TH

Carlyle Rood

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #44 on: March 18, 2004, 01:14:42 PM »
I don't disagree with a word you wrote. Jones was a good, decent, fair man.

My only point was that during an important historical moment in Jones's hometown, some wealthy, powerful members of the white establishment took some risks they didn't need to take. In an ideal world, I would have hoped that Jones - an influencial man of real intelligence - would have lent them his support.

I don't disagree with a word you wrote, either.

But to be perfectly frank, I don't think wealthy, powerful, WHITE, establishment members made any long-term contributions to civil rights.

I recognize that many whites made important contributions, particularly in the passage of legislation requiring equality.  But legislation is just "paper" equality.  It can require equal treatment.  When necessary, it permits enforcing equal treatment.  

But genuine equality only evolves from "performance" equality.  People will respect you as an equal when you can perform as well in the same theater, whether that's in commerce, the classroom, in medicine, in law, whatever.  I think it's also why so much of the groundbreaking in racial equality began in sports.  It was one of the most accessible arenas for minorities to measure themselves with whites.

For white Southerners, MLK's message resonated because, as you listened to him, you perceived him as an equal.  His rhetoric was not groundbreaking.  The message had been communicated before; however, it was now being delivered by this handsome, intelligent, Southern, articulate, BLACK man.  His poise and charisma required respect and admiration.  He shattered stereotypes.

Legislation eventually dictated that MLK could sit down and be served at the same lunch counter.  That's paper equality.  MLK's eloquence made you want to sit next to him.  That's performance equality.

And fundamentally, that's why Jones' stance to require all American golfers to meet the same qualifications was so important (though unpopular), and its why Lee Elder's accomplishment was so grand.  It was much more important for Lee Elder to earn an invitation than it was for Jones to extend him one.  It's doubtless that Jones would have endured less grief had he capitulated.  But that's what makes his principled stand all the more admirable--and for minorities, more rewarding.

Carlyle Rood

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2004, 01:26:38 PM »
Quote
I would like to clarify your statement in regards to sports and role models.  I hope (and think) you will agree ...

As you said Tom, you want to remember Jones for what he did for the game of golf, he is a hero.  Would you consider him a role model?  Maybe on the golf course but I hope not in the way he lived his life, not that he did anything wrong, just that you don't know the details of his life.

First of all, the way Jones lived his life would be an excellent example for your children.  He was a marvelous athlete; but, he was also a remarkable man.  He was a model in the classroom, whether studying engineering at Tech, English literature at Harvard, or law at Emory.  He was a thorough, fair, and successful professional (in law).  He was a marvelous ambassador for sportsmanship and fair play.  He was conscientious, charitable, competitive, and kind.  He was a model human being.

But in deference to your argument, I agree with most of it.  Athletes are often not great role models.  There are a few.  I think Tiger Woods is an excellent role model.  

Ironically, when asked who his role models were in athletics, Woods replied that he didn't have any.  He said that if you depend on a role model as your standard, then you may eventually be disappointed.  Instead, he preferred to select attributes from athletes he admired and tried to emulate those attributes instead of the athletes.  I think by choosing that perspective, it allows Tiger to not only measure up with those athletes, but to exceed those standards by removing any of their shortcomings.

Mike Benham

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2004, 02:14:13 PM »

First of all, the way Jones lived his life would be an excellent example for your children.  He was a marvelous athlete; but, he was also a remarkable man.  He was a model in the classroom, whether studying engineering at Tech, English literature at Harvard, or law at Emory.  He was a thorough, fair, and successful professional (in law).  He was a marvelous ambassador for sportsmanship and fair play.  He was conscientious, charitable, competitive, and kind.  He was a model human being.

I would agree that based on those facts, Jones life might be an excellant example for any child.  However, very few kids, if any, find out about the private person behind the public athlete so they can make an informed choice.[/i]

Quote
But in deference to your argument, I agree with most of it.  Athletes are often not great role models.  There are a few.  I think Tiger Woods is an excellent role model.  

Role model for what?  How he plays golf?  Or how he lives his life?  Compare what we know of Tiger to your facts about Jones above ... was Tiger a model student in the classroom?  Is Tiger a successful business person?  Is he conscientious, charitable, competitive, and kind? ... you realize that he did not graduate from college and it is rumored that he has had pre-marital sex .  ;) . [/i]

Quote
Instead, he preferred to select attributes from athletes he admired and tried to emulate those attributes instead of the athletes.  I think by choosing that perspective, it allows Tiger to not only measure up with those athletes, but to exceed those standards by removing any of their shortcomings.

This is the exact point that I am making, pick attributes of the athlete, typically on the field attributes or at least related to the sport (behavior in the clubhouse, with the press, in public life, etc.)[/i]
"... and I liked the guy ..."

Carlyle Rood

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2004, 02:31:16 PM »
Quote
But in deference to your argument, I agree with most of it.  Athletes are often not great role models.  There are a few.  I think Tiger Woods is an excellent role model.  

Role model for what?  How he plays golf?  Or how he lives his life?  Compare what we know of Tiger to your facts about Jones above ... was Tiger a model student in the classroom?  Is Tiger a successful business person?  Is he conscientious, charitable, competitive, and kind? ... you realize that he did not graduate from college and it is rumored that he has had pre-marital sex .  ;) .

There are a number of things about Tiger worth emulating.  He practices very hard.  He stays fit.  He is methodical, purposeful, and determined.  All are very nice attributes.

He also doesn't gamble, go on drinking binges, or beat his wife.  Oh, wait.  I forgot I can't criticize our discussion board's de facto role model: John Daly!   ;D

Dan King

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2004, 11:15:06 PM »
Carlyle Rood writes:
For a really outstanding read, try "The Greatest Game of All."  It's a very interesting account of Ouimet's U.S. Open triumph, as well as some fascinating information about Vardon and Ray.

I was shocked to see this book in the non-fiction section of my local library.

Every biography has factual inaccuracies, particularly if the author relies on quotes and recollections of the participants!  But this was a very enjoyable book--four and a half stars out of five.

If only factual inaccuracies were the only problem. When you make up facts it makes it really tough to tell what is real and what’s fiction. It would have worked better if he just said it was a novel based on a real situation. The story of the Ouimet Open is a good story, and I don’t understand the point of making-up history instead of at least attempting to do some research.

The Greatest Game of All should not be talked about in any connection with Sir Walter and Mr. Jones; Walter Hagen, Bobby Jones and the Rise of American Golf. Sir Walter and Mr. Jones is a well researched important book. The Greatest Game of All is a book written quickly to appeal to Hollywood and was done with little or no research.

Dan King
Quote
The covers of this book are too far apart.
 --Ambrose Bierce
« Last Edit: March 18, 2004, 11:15:43 PM by Dan King »

THuckaby2

Re:Robert Tyre Jones, Jr.
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2004, 09:28:14 AM »
Carlyle - told ya so!

Hi Dan - read back in this thread if you care to - I told Carlyle that if you saw that about The Greatest Game you'd be on him....

See ya next week!

 ;D

TH