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Patrick_Mucci

How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« on: March 15, 2004, 10:04:51 PM »
A two part question.
1 fairway bunkers
2 greenside bunkers

How much does bunker depth influence your play ?

What's your general threshold for avoidance ?

In the context of the above two questions, are you a good bunker player ?

Joe Hancock

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2004, 10:37:33 PM »
Pat,


I'm not very good with my bunker play, considering my 5-ish handicap. I am fairly strong with iron play, therefore GIR is usually quite high. I find the older I get, the more I avoid bunkers. Bunker depth, especially at greenside, does sway my execution thoughts. Fairway bunkers are usually less in my mind, as I can more easily forgive myself when I get into one. I rarely play enough that I get the level of control with tee shots that negotiating bunkers becomes an exercise of precision!

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Brock Peyer

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2004, 10:44:19 PM »
I am not sure if depth is the only factor that I consider, it is one thing that I take in but the quality/texture of the sand is a huge factor, the length and type of shot required next are big factors also.  
I hate to admit it but it takes something pretty drastic for a hole to take a driver out of my hand (that may explain why my handicap is the highest it has been in 10 years).  I generally think of where I want the ball to go not where I don't want it.  As for fairway bunkers, not many of the courses that I play just make you lay up and out of them so therefore I don't focus on them off of the tee.
Depth in greenside bunkers does factor in my mind sometimes but as I said, I try to focus on where I want it to go, not where I don't but in doing so I focus on the spot on the green that I want to put from.
I guess that I am above average in the sand, lack of practice and playing has kept me from excelling in any one area of the game.
I do enjoy playing out of a good bunker to a good green.

Jim Thompson

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2004, 11:05:02 PM »
1 fairway bunker:
   If single bunker, will manage line of play away or short forgoing "preferred line" if need be.  If bottle neck, will layup 80% of time, unless opponent is in it.
   depth avoidance threshold: +4ft


2 greenside bunker:
   Will avoid single sided.  Multiples effect determined on length of shot.
   depth avoidance threshold: +7ft

With regard to depth, slope / pitch of lip / line of play edge is greater factor than actual depth.  A fairway bunker with steep leading edge even if only 2 feet deep is much more of a mental factor than a overall depth or size.

As to bunker play, prefer softer "fluff" sand, 4" - 6" #8 mortar type, with some depth to the thin hard sand of say Florida greensides.  The larger the fairway bunker, in surface area, the less impact it seems to have as well.  Pretty good out of the sand though!

Cheers!

JT
Jim Thompson

KJaeger

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2004, 11:23:54 PM »
Through recent practice I have developed a more consistent knack for bunker play, so I am not as intimidated as I once may have been.  I would prefer to play from a reasonably-conditioned bunker than from thick rough - I feel I have more control over the spin and distance of the shot, and greenside I am quite confident that I can give myself a decent putt for par.  I suppose I am inclined to be more aggresive when faced with a hole location protected by bunkers, even deep ones.

I am less confident from fairway bunkers, but still preferable to thick rough, unless I know that the depth of the bunker will keep me from proceeding directly toward the green without a detour.

I have a preference for slightly firmer sand conditions than for deeper, fluffier sand.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2004, 12:07:22 AM by Kevin Jaeger »

Matthew Schulte

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2004, 12:04:39 AM »
Pat:

Interesting question.  With the advent of the lob wedge I generally do not fear deep greenside parkland course bunkers.  I would call myself an average greenside bunker player.  Deep fairway bunkers are another matter.  To me, the deep fairway bunker dictates my strategy far more than deep greenside bunkers.  However, it is far easier for me to think of freightening greenside bunkers than it is fairway bunkers.  

Examples that come to mind would be the greenside front left bunker at #6 of Pac Dunes.   Front right at #15 Bandon.  Greenside bunkers at 11 & 13 at Sand Hills are also potentially disasterous.  

Is it too late for me to change my earlier answer?!  Those bunkers do scare the hell out of me!!! ;D      
« Last Edit: March 16, 2004, 12:08:54 AM by Matthew Schulte »

peter_p

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2004, 01:21:37 AM »
Depth of bunker is really important if it is perpendicular to my line of play. If parallel to the line of play I usually end up far enough away to escape. Deep pot bunkers are avoided at all costs.

danielfaleman

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #7 on: March 16, 2004, 01:24:05 AM »
I'm good enough to stay outta' them. ;D

cary lichtenstein

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #8 on: March 16, 2004, 05:59:13 AM »
I love bunkers, am really fairly proficient out of them and the bigger the lips, the greater the depths, bring em on. Prefence has always been a wild natural unkempt look, but that does not affect play, just eye candy for me.

Pet peeve, soft muchy sand.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Matthew Mollica

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2004, 07:55:22 AM »
Good question.

Greenside bunker depth is a factor I seriously consider, especially with closely tucked pins. I can get up and down almost 50% of the time I'm in a greenside trap, which off a handicap of 7, isn't too bad IMO. Perhaps if I were a little more daring in approach play, this stat might suffer a little.

I don't need too deep a bunker to get me to aim another five degrees left or right, when hitting into a green. If there are a number of greenside traps, my aiming point and desirable miss are usually to the shallow bunker side, irrespective of where the pin is cut.

If I can take anything more than a wedge out of the fairway trap, I'll have a go at driving over or near it, especially if there is a reward to be had for doing so. Penal depth and wedge out, with a third to play to the green? I'll chance my arm with a longer second shot in and stay out of the sand.

MM
"The truth about golf courses has a slightly different expression for every golfer. Which of them, one might ask, is without the most definitive convictions concerning the merits or deficiencies of the links he plays over? Freedom of criticism is one of the last privileges he is likely to forgo."

Donnie Beck

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2004, 08:51:33 AM »
I always aim right for them.. Lord knows I never hit em straight, so going right at em is my safest play!!!!

John_Lovito

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2004, 09:00:30 AM »
Pat,

For my game fairway bunkers present more of a problem and I try to avoid them at all cost.  When fairway bunkers are deep I find that the penalty is greater then with penal greenside bunkers, where I am fairly confident I will at least be able to put the ball on the putting surface and have a reasonable chance to hole out.

A_Clay_Man

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2004, 09:03:41 AM »
Because I prefer hitting explosion bunker shots, deep greenside bunkers don't bother me at all. What is more important is the depth and make-up of the sand within said bunker. Deep fairway bunkers probably require more avoidance than others, save for three shotters.

michael j fay

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2004, 09:11:07 AM »
Pat:

I am a proficient bunker player. I am certainly influenced by the depth of both fairway and greenside bunkers.

If a fairway bunker has a significant barrier between the floor of the bunker and the green I will play away from that bunker. If the bunker is flat and shallow without significant lip I will often intentionally aim for it. A shot up to 175 yards from a shallow fairway bunker allows me to spin the ball and control it much better than a shot from the fairway or rough.

As for greenside bunkers: at most courses I ignore them in my strategy. For the most part they are not hazards but rather opportunities. When playing a Winged Foot or Quaker Ridge my strategy changes dramatically. Those are bunkers to be avoided at all costs.

A_Clay_Man

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2004, 09:19:05 AM »
Thinking about the 11th hole at Pebble and the right greenside bunker complex, it's depth ahs little to do with prudent avoidance. The angle of the green and distance of the bunker shot makes avoidance, mandatory.

Steve Pozaric

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2004, 09:31:12 AM »
Different takes on both due to my ability.  
First, fairway bunkers.  I definately take them into consideration; however, accuracy off the tee is not (at least recently) a hallmark of my game.  Therefore, it is an exercise of hit and hope to an extent.  I will, on occasion choose 3wd vs driver, etc. depending on bunkering.

Greenside is different.  Am somewhat better with irons and will look at a combination of bunker depth, location relative to the flag and other options when planning an approach.  I am a decent sand player, so I can live with missing a green in the sand almost as easily as missing a green and being in the grass.

Steve Pozaric
Steve Pozaric

Patrick_Mucci

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2004, 03:28:06 PM »
Is it safe to say that when bunker depth goes beyond your eye level, that the bunker takes on added difficulty and significantly alters your assessment and your play ?

A_Clay_Man

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2004, 03:35:11 PM »
Pat- Since we can only control what we do, seeing ahead is not really an issue. Are you not focused in on the ball?


Tyler Kearns

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2004, 03:52:28 PM »
Pat,

    I consider myself to be a good bunker player, and the threat of recovering from greenside bunkers does not heavily influence my play (although I haven't played the Road Hole yet). However, one aspect of bunker play that is rather troublesome, is the long bunker shot where you need to pick the fairly clean. That definitely influences my play. If a pin on a relatively large green is back right, I'll avoid the front left bunker. The same holds true for hazards located 30 yards or so short of the green, especially on windy days when distance control is more of a challenge and the ground game more of an option.
    Depth alone is not really an issue at the green end of a hole, it is more a function of its proximity to the hole location. However, depth is much more a consideration on fairway bunkers, especially when the depth prevents reaching the putting surface on the subsequent shot.

Tyler Kearns

rgkeller

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2004, 04:06:58 PM »
Deep greenside bunkers with sod walls should be avoided.

Modern deep splash bunkers are no big deal. So long as you are not plugged.

Fairway bunkers are a terrible invention and should be outlawed except in desert courses.

Michael_Choate

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2004, 04:17:00 PM »
Deep fairway bunkers always enter my mind especially if the sand is soft.  Although I am a single digit handicap I don't have the ability to get the ball up quickly enough out of soft sand with anything more than an 8 so I try to avoid deep fairway bunkers.  Greenside bunkers are not as much of  problem except with closely cut pins.  In fact, they are less confusing because I can only play one type of shot.  A shallower bunker tempts me to play shots that I really can't and therefore I actually make more mistakes.  Great question.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2004, 04:25:33 PM »
A Clayman,

Your comments of those of a man deprived of playing the golf courses of CB MacDonald, Seth Raynor and Charles Banks.

Some things are self evident, and do not require "over the horizon" radar.

rgkeller

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2004, 04:28:09 PM »
Pat- Since we can only control what we do, seeing ahead is not really an issue. Are you not focused in on the ball?



You should not be focused ON the ball.

You should BE the ball.

texsport

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2004, 05:55:44 PM »
Some!

Texsport

Doug Siebert

Re:How much does bunker depth influence your play ?
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2004, 02:53:41 AM »
Interesting question with a lot of dimensions...  First off, I'm pretty good from the sand, probably a bit better than your average mid single digit handicap, which surely influences my strategy WRT bunkers.

My overall strategy with "normal" bunkers you'd find in the US is that I don't worry about fairway bunkers if they are either within 150 yards of the green or further than perhaps 220 or so.  The reasoning being that within 150 they are pretty easy to recover from and further than 220 or so I'm assuming I'm hitting driver off a par 5 and using a shorter club for more accuracy won't help because then I'd take myself out of range of hitting the green anyway.  May as well risk it and figure I can lay up out of the bunker pretty much as well as from the fairway (if it is a tricky/tight layup I might reconsider that)  Between 150 & 220 they will affect my strategy sometimes, I might hit a 1 iron off the tee to stay short and not have to worry about them, or I might favor the other side of the fairway if there seems to be little penalty for being in the rough over there.

Around the green I ignore all "normal" bunkers unless their location/slope makes it nearly impossible to hope to get up and down.

The no man's land of bunkers that are further than 35 yards from the pin and less than 80 yards is to be avoided because that's a finesse shot that Annika Sorenstam is apparently much better at than most of us :)

When they get "deep" things can change.  I really don't care too much about depth per se, if I am in a bunker that's 10 feet deep but I'm 15 feet from the lip it isn't that hard of a shot, other than making gauging distance harder because its a blind shot.  Its when you gotta get it up really quickly that things become more difficult, like your prototypical Scottish pot bunker.  So its "deep" along with "steep" that makes me think.

Such a fairway bunker is to be avoided at all costs, as you essentially give up a stroke since you can only recover 20 yards or so, give or take.  If you really get screwed or try to bite off too much, its a two or more stroke penalty and you may as well have just hit it OB!  Around the greens they aren't quite as bad, because you aren't giving up a stroke with a good recovery,  but it sure makes things harder, and you have to be careful of trying to do too much in an effort to get up and down when you should play for 20-30 feet away and take your medicine.

A "deep without steep" can still affect strategy if the lay of the land dictates that the ball is likely to roll into it and leave you near a steep lip quite often.  You see this mostly with a deep bunker to the left or right of a green where if you just miss the green and dribble into the bunker it rolls down the slope and ends up where you have to get it up quickly to recover.  The saving grace for such bunkers in the US is that the slope is sand and not sod and thus you stop before you reach a level lie -- that upslope makes recovery MUCH easier.  I still wouldn't tempt fate with such a bunker, but I'll take it over a deep Scottish pot bunker anyday where the desire for low score is concerned.

The US needs tougher bunkers, most of them are just decorative and don't affecdt play for better players much.  For poor players it sometimes seems as though it doesn't make much difference whether the bunker is one most of us would consider easy or devilish, they get psyched out and have just as tough of a time!
My hovercraft is full of eels.

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