Difficulty with depth - perception

[Patrick_Mucci]

At what depth does a greenside bunker pose an onerous threat, in the approach and in the extrication, to the various levels of golfers listed below ?

Tour pro
+ to 0      handicap
1 to 7      handicap
8 to 14     handicap
15 to 23   handicap
24 to 36   handicap

[Jeff_Brauer]

Great topic, but I have no idea....

I do know that placing bunkers 6-8 feet from the putting surface, to allow greens mowers to turn more easily, takes them largely out of play for the better players.

And I'm not sure depth of greenside bunkers provides much problem until its so deep the good player can't see the pin, or has a funky stance.  Down hill lies can also cause problems, I guess, after hearing from a tour pro recently that it would "take a miracle shot" for him to get a downhill bunker shot within 8 feet of the pin.....

But pure depth?  Perhaps on fairway bunkers, if they block the ability to fly it to the green....

I presume you're asking  as it relates to their deepening at OF?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Patrick,

If you take out the hypen in your subject line, you could have another great topic.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

I wasn't referencing Olympia Fields.

I happened to watch some 11, 12 and 14 handicaps play GCGC the other day, and it got me thinking about greenside bunkers, which for the most part, are deep to moderately deep at GCGC, with some exceptions, like behind # 2.

Bunkers that didn't trouble me bothered them.
In some cases I prefered being in the bunker then to being in the rough, like the fronting bunker on # 1, with my tee shot.

Many greenside bunkers at GCGC are invisible from the fairway or tee, while others send a clear signal to avoid them.  This mix, together with varying depth got me thinking about the subject.

The hyphen was intended as a play on words, and to convey a concept and its perception.

[Mark_F]

This is an interesting question perhaps in some way related to how often the handicappers have bunker lessons or spend time practicing bunker shots.

I'm about a fifteen handicap and generally don't mind being in a bunker because I know it's only a matter of correct technique to get out - obviously there's a difference between technique and execution - but I generally don't find them that hard.  

Jeff Braeur commented that bunkers six-eight feet from the green pose little problem for the better players, but this feature makes bunker shots a little more difficult the higher the handicap.  Although come to think of it, I'm sure Tom Doak wrote in one of his books that having greenside bunkers some distance away from the green on a par-five was actually a greater penalty than having them caressing each other.  Is this your experience/contention, Pat?

Having said that, though, I found when I first played links courses in Britain that pot bunkers have a definite unsettling effect because they are so small that you know you (or feel you must) make perfect contact to escape.  If you play from larger bunkers, you can get away with less than perfect contact (hopefully), and consequently, you (or at least I) may choose to take the aggressive line instead of the more cautious route.

[Andrew_Roberts]

My handicap is a 1 and I personally find it easier to hit out of a bunker with some depth to it.  I have better perception from a bunker 4 or 5 feet deep.  

I believe I also take too much loft from a fairly shallow bunker.  

I believe that the steepness of the lip is also very important.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Andrew Roberts,

Isn't the steepness of the lip frequently related to the depth ?

Mark F,

I do think that offset distances are substantial factors in bunker difficulty, especially when depth is added.

I think that golfers have distance "comfort" ranges.

[Steve Lang]

Gee, a topic I can relate to.. at least 4/6ths of it..
 

At what depth does a greenside bunker pose an onerous threat, in the approach and in the extrication, to the various levels of golfers listed below ?

My take ..

Tour pro --- who cares
+ to 0      handicap --- they don't really care or would admit to it
1 to 7      handicap --- 4 ft approach, 6+ ft extrication
8 to 14     handicap--- 3 ft approach, 3 ft extrication
15 to 23   handicap --- 2 ft approach, 2 ft extrication
24 to 36   handicap --- 1 ft approach, 1 ft extrication

[allysmith]

Mr Mucci,

Great thread.

I wonder if, in addition to the depth of the bunker, the type, depth and condition of the sand is as much a major factor?

Tour pro - doesn't really matter below 6 feet. Steepness of slope a greater factor

+ to 0 handicap -  Pressure of shot and steepness of slope a greater factor

1 to 7      handicap - greater height than player
8 to 14     handicap - Generally greater than 4 feet
15 to 23   handicap - most depths greater than 2 feet
24 to 36   handicap - Any depth the problem is mainly psychological

[Patrick_Mucci]

I would think that a bunker where the PGA tour player can't see the pin would create discomfort.

I would think that a bunker where the 0 handicap can't see the cup would create discomfort,

And, I would agree that even shallow bunkers create discomfort for the 24-36 handicap.

I'll have to give the other brackets some additional thought.

[ForkaB]

I'm in agreement with Andrew in that I think that there is a sort of "Laffer Curve" to bunker depth for the lowe handicap player.  Extremely deep and steep (i.e. need to really open the face and have good technique to get it out) = difficult.  Moderately deep and steep = relatively easy--thinking about gettin it close.  Shallow (particularly those muni bunkers that make you think you can even putt the ball out, even though the sand is soft......) = difficult.

My reasoning behind the latter is mostly psychological.  For one thing, the shallowness creates uncertainty in your conscious/subconscious by giving you visual clues that there are other options (i.e. putt, chip) than the standard bunker shot.  Secondly, I think we use the bunker face as a visual clue that helps us keep our head down and use proper technique--without the bunker face we lose perspective.  Thirdly, none of us practice hitting out of shallow bunkers, so we don't have mental models of the shot.

Is Andrew's post possibly heralding the genesis of the "shallow bunker" school of penal GCA?