Fazio's Mirasol and the Honda

[TEPaul]

I found the Honda Classic and Fazio's Mirasol G.C. very fascinating to watch primarily for the reason JohnnyM mentioned at some point yesterday or today. He said;

"If you want to stop the tour pros from going low raise the greens up like they are at Mirasol and create a plentitude of run-offs."

The course sure did have that and most of the course did have those run-offs and close cropped grass surrounding the raised greens making approach shots and recovery shots both multi-optional and pretty dicey. It was somewhat reminiscient of some of the playability we've seen in Australia recently and certainly reminiscient of Pinehurst #2. Does Mirasol's green playability give Pinehurst's #2 a run for its money that way?

And more ironic---is there a new classic style playablility renaissance architect on the block whose name is Tom Fazio?

[dfrey]

I was out there this week and loved the green complexes.  I saw many chips and approaches run through the greens down the other side of the bank.  Hard greens with ridges and banks creat havoc for the best of players.  Fazio definitely took some lessons from PH#2........

Hopefully I will get to play this week........not from the tips!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Tom
This course may be a great change of pace for the pros- a place where their abilities are actually tested- but I don't think I would buy a membership there. I'm not so sure I would like this course on an everyday basis.
Steve

[BCrosby]

Agreed. I appears on TV to be a very interesting course.

We have talked several times on GCA that the only way to check the pros is with contouring. Jeff Brauer had some terrific posts along those lines. Rough, length, hazards, pinched fairways, none of 'em work as well as contouring. That was the original MacK/Jones theory at ANGC.

Full credit here to Fazio, though I've only seen Mirasol on TV. (Under the Mucci rules, do I have a standing to an opinion if I like the course? Or do the standing rules only apply if I don't like the course?)

J. Miller or someone said that this was not a typical Fazio course because it is one of the few courses that he has designed with the express intent that it be used as a PGA venue.

Could this be the beginning of a new Fazio chapter? There are some hints of this new style at his Seaside 18 at Sea Island finished a couple of years ago.

Bob

BTW, how about the knockdown shot Hamilton (corrected per TEP's admonishment below) hit on 18 to win the thing? How many times has a PGA event been won with a shot that was intentionally played to land short of the green? Good stuff.



 

[DPL11]

I also enjoyed watching the Tour guys having to make decisions.

It was kind of funny listening to the announcers talking about options. They showed a few pieces on recovery choices from around the greens.

Not the usual bomb and chase show.



Doug

[rgkeller]

The Fazio course at Mirasol is a joy to play for the player who does not mind thinking on every shot and is willing to try a variety of approach, pitch and chip shots.

The fairways are quite generous out to 250 or so. The course is firm and fast. The longer holes give the players the option of running the ball on to the greens as there are virtually no bunkers in the front of the greens.

[Willie_Dow]

Yes, Tom:

Agree with your observations, once again.  Faz seems to have found something which goes back to #2, and he has expanded upon it very creatively.

It was fun to watch for a change!  Suffer as we will in a chair.

[TEPaul]

Bob:

That sure was one helluva clever shot he hit in there to win the Honda and you could tell he was in another world after he hit that shot but I don't think he was in so much of another world he thought his name was Harrison---but perhaps he did!

The Honda champion's name is Todd Hamilton.    

[rgkeller]

And Hamilton's shot on 18 landed ON the green.

[RJ_Daley]

Sorry Tom, I didn't see this thread and answered on the other.  It looks like a consensus is forming in the treehouse on how good this new guy Fazio is...

[Mike_Cirba]

I saw none of the tournament but I'm heartened to hear that you guys liked what Fazio did there.

Or, is our "greatest modern architect" emulating Donald Ross simply another sign of the impending Apocalypse?    

[RJ_Daley]

Mike, I went on the website and was stunned to see the amount of homesite lots are in the project that includes a second course by Art Hills.  But the homes seem well hidden from the TV angles anyway.  By the looks of the project site map, they would be walking past a number of housing pods from green to next tee, yet none of that was apparent on the TV.  I really think this Fazio character is on to something with raised green sites and shouldered collar length surrounds maintenance.  The bunkering looks well placed, well made and relevant.  

[SPDB]

I saw what appeared to be a course with:

• interesting bunker shapes (with random shapes) and placements
• contoured greens that drove players into fits
• green complexes that created tons of shot opportunities and appreciable "short game interest"
• firm and fast conditions

the list could go on, and each one of these elements (excepting the last) have been used as a criticism of Fazio's designs by many on here, and their sympathizers.

Where is everybody now with the post-mortem discussion of Fazio's architecture?

[George Pazin]

I really liked what I saw this past weekend - easily the most entertaining course this year, besides my personal favorites of Kapalua and Riviera. I'm just disappointed that the most promising Fazio course I've seen is private. Those green complexes looked terrific. I can't believe anyone wouldn't relish playing them all the time - surely the pin placements aren't as wacky for the normal membership, and the greens are certainly slower as well. All in all, a joy to watch. The Anti-Hope is what they should rename this event.

I'm pretty annoyed at Johnny for continuing to perpuate stereotypes. On Saturday's broadcast, he said all they need to do to hold a major there is grow the rough. Gee, let's ignore the architect's intent yet again and turn another entertaining course into a boring penal course. I wish JM were as sharp as he thinks he is. At least he didn't say Hamilton's swing would make Hogan puke....

[SPDB]

George -
where did Fazio say he intended the course to be roughless. Isn't he best known for adding rough?  

[cary lichtenstein]

I have played the course and went to the tournament. I think the conscious of the players will be not to go back there.

The greens reject too many well hit shots to be considered really good. It borders on goofy golf .

[Matt Kardash]

I didn't really like this course (from what I saw on tv). I know everyone gets a hard-on because it has roll-off areas around the greens, but is it really fun to play a course that has 18 greens that are pushed up like 7 or 8 feet and rolls off on all sides? I dunno, this course doesn't even remotley give you a chance. It seems all the balls repel from the hole. It seems you are never able to bail out on any hole. It's as if every green on the course is like #3 at Kiawah(only bigger and more undulating), for a short par 4 it may work, but 18 greens just seems like overkill and impossible to play.

Also aesthetically the course did nothing for me. I hate how there are water hazards that are semi in play (ie, 15 yards off the fairway), either make the water in play or not at all.

Funny thing is, the hole I liked best I found out was part of the other course(#18). And i didn't love that hole either, it just seemed a little more reasonable.

Again I base this solely from watching on tv. And i know everyone here is sensitive to Fazio bashing so i should just say that I have no agenda. I have nothing agianst fazio, I just didn't like this course at all.

I guess I just had to balance out the universe with all the praise you guys have been giving it thus far.  

[George Pazin]

Sean -

I'm assuming that since this was the inaugural tournament for a course that's only recently opened, that it was setup as close to how the architect intends as possible. I could certainly be wrong with that assumption, but none of the interviews with Fazio would lead me to believe otherwise.

What I'm objecting to is Johnny's formulaic approach to major setup - would he advocate growing the rough at #2?

[RJ_Daley]

Jimmy Roberts had one of those commentator editorials and spoke of how refreshing it was to see a course break out of the typical tour mold in terms of design and set-up maintenance.  For those saying it is goofy golf, I'd say there were plenty of greens being held and putted well.  With the winner (on a course never previously played) at -12, and 39 out of 73 playes under par, it doesn't seem too tough or goofy.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

For those who are interested, Tom Fazio will be interviewed Monday night on Golf Central on The Golf Channel and will discuss this course.

Steve

[A_Clay_Man]

Two things, first, the outside leg hazards (bunkers) seemed placed for member containment.

One pro commented on how there was nowhere to aim off the tee. Sounds like growing in the roughlines would ruin this mind messing aspect.

[John_Cullum]

The course sure did have that and most of the course did have those run-offs and close cropped grass surrounding the raised greens ....

I appreciate all who have posted to this thread for refusing to refer to these areas as "chipping areas, a term I thoroughly detest. I think Johnny Miller may have been the first to use this term, along with the "low" on the green.

[JSlonis]

I have played Pinehurst #2, and to me, it looked like on TV that the greens at Mirasol were much more severely pushed up than most of the greens at #2.

I don't see how this style leads to multi optional approaches.

Don't these severly raised greens just make the aerial game all that more important?  A high soft approach shot was about the only way the players could get close to some of the hole locations or just keep the ball on the green.  Yes, there were more options around the greens for the short game, but I think the sharply raised greens decreased the options for approach shots.

[Michael_Choate]

I generally liked what I saw on T.V.  The course reminded me a little bit of Sea Island (seaside) although a bit more severe in terms of the push-up nature of the greens.  I heard O'Meara say that he liked the course.  What have the Tour players said?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'd like to play the golf course first and then offer my opinion.