Flynn's Indian Creek---Miami

[roger simons]

Where did the pictures of Indian Creek go?

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, I'm really curious to see the pictures of this most exclusive course.  

I'll certainly be willing to offer my opinion on the natural/unnatural look in question because I'll be looking for the seams.

DFrey;

I hope you're not discouraging posts from people who aren't members of exclusive clubs.  I suggest you stick to discussing Jakab's points that you disagree with and not demean anyone's economic or social pedigree.

For what it's worth, you might also be surprised to learn that he's a member of two midwest clubs, including a well-heeled, highly regarded (Top 100) one.  Financial security doesn't necessarily translate into knowledge and appreciation of great architecture, and visa versa.  

[Scott_Burroughs]

John B. Kavanaugh?  Who in the world is this person (with
only 27 posts)?  Never heard of him.

Mr. Kavanaugh,

If I recall correctly, the pictures that were posted of Indian
Creek were of only one hole (#12 or #13)!  Are
you trashing the entire course based on pictures of one hole?

FYI, here's a picture of the entire course from above.

It's only an aerial, but the bunkering from above looks
interesting to me.  #12 or #13 is at the top, by
the water.  I've heard the course has a good amount of
elevation change (obviously manufactured, since the entire
island was manufactured) for a S. Florida course.

[Evan Fleisher]

Holy crap...that island really IS all golf course!!!  Amazing!!!

[dfrey]

Evan,

The $2 million+ houses that border the course are not bad either!  

A few of the lucky owners:  N. Braman, D. Shula and R. Pitino!

[rgkeller]

The days are long past when one could get a sniff of a $2 Million dollar house on IC Island.

[roger simons]

Where did the damn pictures go?

[rgkeller]

>>I'm still waiting to here something beyong price and exclusitivity.<<

There may be an unintended message there.
 

[wsmorrison]

The man who posted them took them down for reasons of his own.  It may very well be due to the tone the thread was taking.  Its a shame because there is a lot to love about the design and the club. I was not spewing hyperbole after a great trip.  I also was not being absolutely precise when I said top 5, but it sure is up there.  I also don't recall Tom or I talking about price or exclusivity in our comments.  Why some choose to focus on that is beyond me.  We talked of the inherent greatness in the architecture and I thought we covered it fairly well on this platform.  How it strayed beyond that, I'm not sure.  How we conduct ourselves on this website has a real impact on the potential this site can achieve.  I hope we all keep that in mind.  I think Ran's changes may be for the good although I wish they weren't necessary.
Regards,
Wayne

[Craig Disher]

John,
Not to answer for Wayne, but early aerials show that area to have been part bunker and part rough, bumpy ground. If my memory is correct, the area is played as a waste area which seems to correspond to Flynn's intent. The rest of the bunkers on the hole are similar in size and position to the way they were in the 30s.

[roger simons]

Wayne
If true that is too bad. The tone wasn't super, but I've read much worse. IMHO that is an overreaction and a little too sensative.

[wsmorrison]

Roger,

The man who posted the pictures has a good sense of propriety and a duty to safeguard his ability to view courses and photograph them in the future.  This surely had an impact on his sensitivities.  

John,

That very bunker is the one that was drawn as a 180 yard bunker on the original plans and is around 100 yards long today.  It is very large with a nice cape in it.  The size works very well given the grand width and length of the hole.  I don't know if I would say it is typical of Flynn but he built large sandy waste areas (as Craig stated) like this was intended at Shinnecock and Atlantic City CC but as at Indian Creek, the look has become more formalized over time.  Likewise the bunkering on 12 (190 yard par 3) and 13 (308 yard par 4) these bunkers were much more rough edged with sea grasses in the hazard.  The picture in Geoff Shackelford's book shows the look on number 12 very well.  As I said in a previous post, the finish of the bunkers was changed sometime in the late 1930s. Maintenance practices and tastes change and this certainly reflects that.  

The bunker renovations were done by an outside contractor, I forget who, under the direction of Ron Forse and Joe Pantaleo.

Scott,

Thanks very much for posting the aerial.  This is one case where the course looks nearly as good from the air as it does on the ground.

The clubhouse is on the bottom left with the red roof and swimming pool.  The view from the patio over pool looks out on downtown Miami Beach and is a very nice view.  The clubhouse sits on the highest ground in Dade County at about 35 feet above sea level.  The ground gradually slopes up to the hill in a most natural way.  

6 is the hole to the left of the white-roofed building below the resevoir in the upper right of the course.  The field of 4 bunkers when seen from the tee hides the landing area which you can see is pretty large.  A ball hit straight over the heart of the bunkers can get a turboboost, if it fades a bit right or does not take correct line of play then the result is a ball that kicks to the right and not forward.  It is a brilliant hole that makes the player think as well as execute.

[Craig Disher]

Wayne,
Flynn used the same idea for 6 in his design for Manor's soon to be gone 14th hole. At Manor, the slopes around the bunkers have been pounded down over time with mowing, golf carts and settling but they are there still there. In the 60s, the fairway area behind the bunkers was turned into rough so the risk/reward of carrying the bunkers doesn't come into play.They're now penal hazards and the leftmost one (of only two, not four) is stuck behind a pair of pine trees and can't be seen from the tee.

Do you think Flynn had a few favorite holes that he repeated from time to time?

[Evan Fleisher]

Okay...serious question...which direction in the above picture is NORTH.  Interested to know because I'm trying to see which angle these holes play into the prevailing winds from the East.

My guess in the top of the photo is North, but I am curious to see if I'm correct.

JohnK...sorry about straying from the intended topic at hand.  It was just very suprising to me that basically the ENTIRE island was the coursem, except for a single row of houses around it.  nice to know one of my former neighbors (Don Shula) lives there now.  He moved from Miami Lakes a number of years ago when his wife Dorothy passed away from cancer (my Dad was hepling with her treatment in some fashion)...I had no idea this is where he and his new wife ended up.

[TEPaul]

John B. Kavanaugh;

That sounds weird! Can I still call you Barney?

Obviously, you want a good deal more info on Indian Creek, probably background and how it is today. No problem, that's what this site is for. Wayne and I spent a good part of the day there last week going over the course mostly with the super. We have Toomey and Flynn's original construction plans, we've seen a number of old aerials and photos and went over the course pretty carefully the other day--didn't play it though, but frankly I prefer it that way these days, for me it's better that way for observation.

Tomorrow we'll try to do a hole by hole for you if you'd like with as much detail about the course both generally and specifically.

I wouldn't get too concerned about that remark of Wayne's when he put the course in his top five Flynns. Why is that such a big deal to you? How exactly are you sizing up Flynn's career inventory and their relative merit anyway? As for me, well, you know, I have a hard time rating courses but I sure don't mind talking about what I see on them in detail. This one is particularly interesting, at least to me, since the whole damn thing you see there above an original flat man-made island-- basically everything, everywhere was completely molded by construction. Maybe that doesn't sound like a big deal to you but when you see the golf course and the entire property it probably would.

Is that what you're looking for---a hole by hole detailed description of the course with some other general observations about the place?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Evan,

North is at top.  All aerials I did were north at top.

[Evan Fleisher]

Thanks Scott.

That being said and no known...and knowing that this is a COMPLETELY MAN-MADE island golf course...do you think that Flynn took advantage of hole placements to really test one's ability to handle the various "normal" tradwinds in the area?

It seems that many of the holes run in a direction that would create cross breezes versus playing into or against the wind.  I'm not sure if that is a good thing, bad thing, or nothing at all, but since he seemed to have 100% architectural design possibilities what do we think of how the course was physically laid ouyt in a directional sense?