Oak Hill East - Overrated?

[AKay]

Oak Hill Country Club in Rochester, NY.  Is it overrated? Why?

[Dan Herrmann]

imho - not at all.  A classic Ross masterpiece.

[ed_getka]

A,
 Why do you ask? I would rather see Monroe CC first from what I've heard from people.

[Cory Lewis]

I consider it overrated because it isn't a Ross anymore and was destroyed by the Fazio redo.  If tradition were taken out I don't think it would be that great of a golf course.  

[John Foley]

Overated? As compared to the ranking in GD or GW?

Not worth of testing the best of the best?

There is still alot of Ross out there. The new holes and new greens do stick out, but the routing is still very solid and the greens have a tremendous amount of charcter. A few of the holes 7-9,  13 & 16-18 are fantastic.

I think Oak Hill gets alot of flack from people because of the changes, but it is still a very, very solid golf course.

Here is a question, would you tear it up and bring it back to what Ross deigned in the 20's or would you leave it as it is today?

[Matt_Ward]

AKay, et al:

Oak Hill / East needs to buzzsaw plenty of the timber that engulfs the course. In real terms -- Oak Hill / East is the east coast equivalent of Olympic / Lake -- it's time for the lumber to be cut so that the playing angles of the course can be brought back into play.

What you have is a difficult but limited strategic course IMHO.

How GD rates it among the nationa's ten best is a major league stretch in my mind. Oak Hill has benefited from being able to host a number of prestigious events (e.g. US Open, PGA, Ryder Cup, etc, etc) and that visibility has translated into the kind of "bump up" in assessments by many people.

It doesn't hurt that Donald Ross is associated with the layout but truth be told I really enjoyed the sister course for what it is. When the Tom & George Fazio duo changed the golf course one has to ask did the work really improve upon what was already there?

From a straightforward architectural assessment I think Oak Hill is just not in the same league with other New York State courses that finished behind it (e.g. Bethpage Black, Fisher's Island, Fenway, Olde Kinderhook, to name just four).

From my experience the holes at Oak Hill really aren't really unique, however, it simply produces a steady stream of relative sameness -- although I do enjoy the short uphill 14th hole -- most err towards difficulty in order to make up for what it lacks in terms of memorability.

I'll concede a top 100 position -- but a top ten position is almost as bad as St. Joseph's getting a #1 seed!

[Andy Hughes]

How GD rates it among the nationa's ten best is a major league stretch in my mind. Oak Hill has benefited from being able to host a number of prestigious events (e.g. US Open, PGA, Ryder Cup, etc, etc) and that visibility has translated into the kind of "bump up" in assessments by many people.

It's inertia Matt  
Once you get settled towards the top, you're like an incumbent in politics--almost impossible to dislodge.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Glad to see we can continue the previous thread into another post!

The issue my good man is the inability of certain people when reviewing courses to separate the hype of an event with inherent architectural merits. New York State is likely the most competitive golf state / re: private clubs in the nation.

Oak Hill / East is a fine course no doubt but the architectural dynamics are really thrown out because of the love affair with timber and the incessant paranoia in order to take a Ross course and overdose it through sheer difficulty IMHO.

Andy -- you need to wake up and smell the coffee on the argument I presented -- the inertia rests more with those doing the reviewing. It's time they started to do a better job on their homework assignments!

[Andy Hughes]

Glad to see we can continue the previous thread into another post!

Heh   I didn't mean to exactly; but it was beggin' for it!

Andy -- you need to wake up and smell the coffee on the argument I presented -- the inertia rests more with those doing the reviewing. It's time they started to do a better job on their homework assignments!  

I agree entirely! I have always agreed with that, just as voters continue to vote in incumbents.  
But if rankings are the result of raters rating, and raters don't 'do a better job on their homework,' then we will have the Oak Hills of the world forever remaining atop the rankings.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Oak Hill / East needs to buzzsaw plenty of the timber that engulfs the course. In real terms -- Oak Hill / East is the east coast equivalent of Olympic / Lake -- it's time for the lumber to be cut so that the playing angles of the course can be brought back into play.

Matt, you should know that OC has spent the last 4-5 months doing exactly that...removing much of the trees (particularly non-native euchalyptus) and underbrush.  The work at this time has been focused on the first 8 holes and the 14th.  The 5th hole right now is remarkable in its appearance from the fairway to the green.  I would expect, based on the results to date from this, that the rest of the course will follow.  The benefits to the turf have yet to be realized since not enough time has passed.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin R:

I hear what you're saying partner -- but the tree growth took years and years to grow and it's going to take more than just lip service to the issue. I mean the club actually takes pride in the fact that excessive tree growth is appropriate.

I was at the PGA last year and I have had the opportunity to play the famed East Course a few times. The layout has been morphed / steroided into something geared primarily towards the long and boring style of golf -- you know the drill -- hit the middle of the fairway and then proceed from there.

Kevin -- clearly that's good news regarding what is being carried out, however, it doesn't clear something up for me -- the Digest assessment (top ten USA) is way off because it's viewed from what the course was -- a tree-lined limited architectural Ross treat that's been altered with a nonfit TF remodel or whatever one wants to call it. I don't doubt that when the work is completed it may be something more but that's not what I saw at last year's PGA.

[Jeff Goldman]

It would be interesting to see pictures after the tree program.  I put my tape of abc coverage of the 1968 US Open, and it seemed pretty open compared with the 2004 PGA.  several of the greens were not completely surrounded by rough.  You could also clearly see the changes to 18, where the green was apparently moved forward to the very edge of the hill, and 15, the 165 yd. par 3 with OB (left I think).  Why did anyone care about OB on a par 3?

Jeff Goldman

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff / Kevin, et al:

If you have not already done so -- I would recommend reading Brad Klein's book on Donald Ross -- there is a length section that details the nature of what Oak Hill was and what it became. It's very good and certainly worth perusing IMHO.

[Jeff Goldman]

Matt, good call.  I did so yesterday while looking at the tapes.  Brad has a terrific posting of Ross's notes on at least one hole, with a sort of time line tracing when bunkers were built, filled in, other changes etc.

Jeff Goldman

[John Foley]

I don't have Brad's book in front of me, but there are some very detailed drawings which show exactly what was done and by whom & when since the original Ross design. I beleive they we're done by Oak Hill's in house historian. If anyone has it near them they may want to drop his name in here. If not I'll try and do that this evening.

It would be great to see if we could get that level of detailed shared w/ the group abput Oak Hill and any other number of courses which have benn tinkered w/ over time.

Would love to see that levle of detail desriobed about Shinnecock given it's lineage.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Jeff / Kevin, et al:

If you have not already done so -- I would recommend reading Brad Klein's book on Donald Ross -- there is a length section that details the nature of what Oak Hill was and what it became. It's very good and certainly worth perusing IMHO.

Matt, my comments were limited to Olympic Club, which you had grouped with Oak Hill in terms of tree growth.  I wanted to separate the west coast "O" course from the east course one.  I think the comparison is no longer warranted or valid.  Thanks.

[Matt_Ward]

Kevin R:

I hear what you're saying but sorry to say I'm not buying what you're selling / re: Olympic and Oak Hill on the tree route.

Yes, a number of trees have been taken down but unless the timber really started to fall after the PGA I have to say Oak Hill's reputation is based on hosting major events and in providing a demanding golf course. The nature of the trees created a bowling alley type course and the repetitive prodding play truly becomes a snooooooze fest after just a few holes.

My point was that architectural ingredients Ross provided have either been minimized or pushed aside for the more basic alignment with power and difficulty. You also have the "additional holes" through the TF and GF connection. I mean do they really fit the character of the original course?

Look, I've got no doubt that Oak Hill / East is an exceptional course but for it to be top ten is a big time stretch IMHO. The State of New York is a big time hotbed for private clubs and I'll be most curious to return sometime late this year to see how things are progressign along the lumber removal program.

P.S. By the way -- the original 15th was a better hole than the more "modern" one that exists today IMHO.

[JNC Lyon]

The only problem with OHCC East today are the greens on 5,6 and 15. They obviously don't fit in with the other greens.  Other than that, the course is very solid. IMHO, the trees aen't even too much of a factor. I do not know when you all have played it, but trees are constantly being trimmed/taken down. The new superintendent will hopefully do more work in this department. The remaining 14 Ross greens as well as Fazio's green at 18 are outstanding. They are not filled with contour, but the subtle breaks will give all golfers, especially the tour pros, fits. The strategy is immense despite the trees. The course is a very stern test, kept in peak condition, and an overall thrill to play. It is underrated if anything.

[Matt_Ward]

John --

How is a course underrated when Digest already has it among the nation's top ten?

I was there last year for the PGA and the trees are still an issue. I don't doubt that given the eyes of members and the like the amount of trees taken down may be significant but from what I saw in August there's still plenty of work to be done before one can really say  it is the equivalent of what Oakmont and Winged Foot did on that same subject.

[Kevin_Reilly]

Kevin R:

I hear what you're saying but sorry to say I'm not buying what you're selling / re: Olympic and Oak Hill on the tree route.

We have a failure to communicate here!  

Olympic:  substantial tree removal/reduction done in last 6 months.

Oak Hill:  nothing of the sort done.

Do you agree with the above summation?  If so, then we are in agreement!

[JNC Lyon]

Matt-

I'm not even thinking of GD here. I am thinking of this website. The course is constantly being beaten down. It is seen as sacreligious to defend it. Is there a point where tough is seen as bad? The course makes you think on every shot. One loose shot will result in a loss of a hole or several strokes. Is this bad? Pine Valley carries this same philosophy, as well as many trees. I am NOT in any way comparing OHCC to Pine Valley. I am just saying that trees and a demanding golf course are not always bad.

[michael j fay]

The course is not nearly as over treed as it was a couple of years ago, but still a study in oak canopies.

The fifth (Fazio), the sixth (RTJones) and the 15th (Fazio) are out of character for a Ross design. Tees have been tinkered with on nearly every hole but the remaining 15 greens are still strongly Ross.

Rating is in te eye of the beholder but for my money holes # 1,3,4,8,9,11,13,14,16,17 and 18 would put this course in the top 20 on any list.

The number 3 hole is one of the best par three holes anywhere and # 13 is one of the most clever 5 pars.

As for Rochester in general I like Irondequoit as much as any other but with the exception of CC of Rochester the Ross courses in town (Oak Hill East and West, Irondequoit, Monroe County and Brook Lea) are all good golf courses.

[Jeff Goldman]

How similar is the 18th green, and the hole, to what it was when the green was set further back?  Did they try to recreate the Ross green when they moved it?  Seems to me that under firm conditions you could bounce it onto the old 18, and if the ground was really firm might have to.  No chance of that now.

Jeff Goldman

[John Foley]

In Brad's book it lists Don Kladstrup as the historian and author of a book on the design history of Oak Hill called The Evolution of a Legacy.  Not sure if the renderings which show the course changes are from that book or not.

[Matt_Ward]

John Lyon:

Oak Hill / East gets a major bump up because it has hosted major events over the years. If one had to name any number of holes on the short list of great holes in America you'd be hard pressed to have candidates from the East Course make the top 72 holes in America.

The issue isn't whether "tough is bad" but what form of architectural elements take the course beyond just the tag of being "tough." Let me give you an example -- Bethpage Black is erroneously thought by some people -- primarily because of the US Open in '02 -- as being just tough. The architectural elements are certainly there on a host of holes even though the 18th is a major downer that keeps the course from rising even further.

I've played my share of rounds at Pine Valley and I do concur that they have become more and more of an issue from its original days but the qualities of architetural greatness are there. If PV cut down a few more it would only serve to enhance the experience. Oak Hill / East has long celebrated the onslaught of trees at the course. Read any club account and you get not only the sense but the absolute purpose to make the course more of a walk in the country woods experience.

John -- do yourself a favor and visit Oakmont and Winged Foot to see what has been done. Taking down a few hundred trees at Oak Hill is nothing more than an appetizer to what the main course needs.

I never said the course should not be among the top 100 clubs in the USA -- but when GD lists it among the top 10 it's a big time stretch IMHO.

Kevin R:

Mea culpa -- the senior moments are coming fast and furious. Hopefully, that same pace will apply to Oak Hill / East and it's Sherwood Forest.