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Neil Regan

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Where on TOC is this ?
« on: February 26, 2003, 10:16:53 PM »
I found this picture somewhere (maybe here ?). I think it's Hugh Kirkaldy in 1902 at St. Andrews, putting.

Where on the course is he ?

Can anybody figure it out ? I don't know the answer.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2003, 11:04:22 PM »
Saw this, and instantly thought this shot was taken from the flatter, western side of the Himlaya's Putting Green.  Quite obviously, it would seem that Old Tom must have utilized it on certain days!  TOTALLY COOL AND EVEN MORE AMAZING!

Tom Doak, Had you ever heard of this?

I have marked just about where I think it was taken.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2003, 11:08:09 PM »
Looking further, Hamilton Hall hasn't even been built yet, and it could even be during the days when they simply teed the ball up at the closest point to the hole to play the next one.

This picture may be earlier then 1902.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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ForkaB

Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2003, 12:47:48 AM »
Tommy/nregan

My perspective my be on the fritz, but I'd put that location between the current 1st and 17th greens.  There was a temporary green there last time I played TOC (Feb 2000).

Might it even be the 1st green of the Reversed OC?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2003, 03:16:10 AM »
Gotta disagree with you on that one Rich.

If you look at Swilcan Burn, it is not only bending real gradually at the back, it also goes to the extreme ocean side of the property. The back footbridge is situated exactly where the path to the Himalayas putting green would be. (I'm now looking at my aerial map of the course too.) Look at the alignment of the R&A in relation to the aerial of the hole. If indeed it was over on the other side near 17, the R&A would be on the extreme left, and the oceanside cliffs, in back of the R&A would be out of view from that paticular area.

This area that is pictured is just to the right of where the medal tees are for the 2nd

The time frame to me is about the 1880's. The clothing is what is telling me that, as well as no Hamilton Hall (The Grand Hotel) which opened in 1895.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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ForkaB

Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2003, 04:01:36 AM »
Tommy

I do (or should) generally defer to you in terms of photographic analysis, but to me the line through the gentleman on the right towards what will become Hamilton Hall tells me that I am right.  If I were wrong (i.e. they were on the Ladies putting green), that line would extend towards the old Woolen Mill.  No?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Neil Regan

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Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2003, 10:03:35 AM »
Tommy,
 Two thoughts:
  
1. I assume the picture is posed. Do you think maybe the photographer chose the spot, and the golfers are not actually on any putting green, Himalaya or otherwise.

2. You suggest 1880's as the time. The caddies are holding the clubs under their arms in the old style, but they do have significantly large bags (at least one does).When were bags this big first used ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2003, 10:04:54 AM »
Rich, If you really look at the defined bending of the Swilcan Burn, you'll see all you need to really see where the picture is taken. Also, as late as it was last night when I posted, I forgot to mention that I don't think it is neccessarily, as I originally surmized, as being on the Himalayas. I in fact think it is located right next to the medal tee for #2.

If you look, the Swilcan would have had to bend back towards the 1st green, where it fronts it. (I think that area is actually right and out of the image.) If it is between the 1st and 17th greens, it (The Swilcan Burn) doesn't even come close. Just my opinion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

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Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2003, 12:25:45 PM »
That picture is on page 190 of "the Scrapbook of Old Tom Morris".  There it is sort of colorized.  The penciled in notation is "Still playing the course in reverse about 1890 - one week clockwise - the next week - anti-clockwise."

I hope this sheds some light... ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Tommy_Naccarato

Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2003, 01:17:55 PM »
Dick, If you could, scan or shoot it and and send it to me and I'll try to post it later on.

I'm pretty sure its where I think it is.

nregan, I couldn't tell you exactly wneh they started using bags, but it was much earlier then say 1850. I'm pretty sure about the time though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Where on TOC is this ?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2003, 01:52:19 PM »
I'm also fairly convinced that the photo is of the Amateur Championship of 1893 fro looking at the named photo from page 170.  On that page, identifying the event and people photographed, P.C. Anderson was the sinne and I believe he is the one taking the shot on the photo above.  I think Daw is the man watching him, second from the right, and the unnamed man in the p170 photo may be Willie Prk Jr., who is possibly the same man as on far right on photo above.  

I'll try to do the scans...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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