[Dan_Belden]

Is there a certain amount of resentment against Muirfield Village (MV) because it is Jack's course.  I feel that on Golf Club Atlas MV does not quite get the respect that I believe it deserves.  For example, many insist that the course is to hard for the average player.  Pine Valley is to hard for the average player.  MV is a second shot golf course, much as Pine Valley is, and the difficulty of the second shot is determined by the placement of the tee shot. To score well on either course it is imperative to be in the correct part of the fairway.  Now I am not saying that MV is as good as Pine Valley, but this is one really good golf course.
  MV has all the attributes that are regularly praised on this web site. Recoverabililty, ample wide fairways with wonderfull movement, strategy galore, variety of length, challeging greens, and beautiful scenery.  
  A great hole to study is the 18th, with its numerous choices of the tee.  Take driver and challenge the dogleg, the creek, and the right bunker for a shorter shot into a difficult green.  Eliminate the trouble of the tee, and face a longer shot into the green.  The hole oozes strategy.  On the 11th players are again faced with many similar decisions.  
   I am not sure why this course doesn't get more respect on this web site. Could it possibly be a little resentment against its founder.  I wonder.  

[David Wigler]

Dan,

GCA is full of GW raters.  GW rates MV 8th in the country.  How much more respect can it get?

[Tim_Weiman]

Dan Belden:

I'm a very big fan of Jack Nicklaus (the golfer) and have no reason to resent his work with any golf course.

But, Muirfield Village never really appealed to me. It just seems a little too much like a housing development than a golf course for my taste.

I'd prefer Brookside any day.

Tim

[Dan_Belden]

Hey Tim:  It is too bad that MV has those houses, I just am always impressed with the quality of the holes, and subsequently the shots.  
   I am going to post a few Brookside shots in the next few days.  I need to get a hold of a scanner.

[ChipOat]

Haven't played it in 20 years (lots of changes, I'm told), but it's still in my Top 10.

Have never played another Nicklaus course that measured up (2 or 3 others) but that's not surprising since he built those for other people and MVGC for him.

[Tim_Weiman]

Dan,

I won't argue that there aren't some good holes at MV, but there is something about the place that draws attention to the real estate aspect and for me it is a big turn off.

I want golf to be a "get away" experience. A Brookside or Sand Ridge, for example, can do that. MV can't, at least not for me.

Tim

[Jim Franklin]

I can't get over the fish at the snack shack after #9. I have never seen anything like that in my life. Nothing to do with the course, but it was my #1 memory of my day there.

[dfrey]

Besides Augusta....there is no other course in the country as better conditioned than MVGC.  It is a great test and those greens are as tough as any on the tour.  Jack should get kudos for improving his baby year after year.

[Matt_Ward]

Dan B:

How does a course that consistently is rated among the best in the country -- a perennial top 25-50 in the USA -- get a lack of respect?

I've played MV a few times over the years and it clearly goes beyond plenty of the early Nicklaus designs for the dynamics of all-around shotmaking -- albeit on the more demanding side as you step further back on the tees. Let's not minimize the exposure that TV provides with the annual event in Dublin.

However, from a purely personal point of view I'd still rather te it up at TGC in New Albany simply because of the greater design features and details you see with Pete's layout there.

Dan -- you mentioned a stinging comment on your initial post regarding the work of Jack Nicklaus. I think you have to ask people how many different Jack Nicklaus layouts they have played over the years in order to better appreciate the evolving nature of his design style. Some people are trapped into thinking that one Nicklaus style course from the early years is the same as is today. In my mind -- they're not.

Clearly, a number of his earlier designs (say from the early 80's to the early 90's) were formulated on a very narrow level of variety -- more likely to fit the kind of golf game Nicklaus has. I have played somewhere between 40-50 Nicklaus courses over the years and some of his more recent layouts -- e.g. Hokuli'a on the Big Island, Outlaw at Desert Mountain in Scottsdale and Cimmaron Hills just outside of Austin, to name just three, are well done and provide the kind of variety of holes for all types of players.

Unfortunately, sometimes people take a first impression from a scant number of courses and then forever apply some assessment for that person -- whether it be a good or bad tag. I have found that asking people how many courses they have played from Jack's portfolio over what particular time period can play a big part in understanding if they have seen enough of his work to differentiate the styles of what was to what is today.

[Dan_Belden]

Very insightful post Matt.  I do feel that at times MV is sort of disregarded as a top 10 course.  How often do we talk about Pacific Dunes, Bandon, Pine Vallley, Shinnecock, but very rarely about MV.  Very rarely does this course get mentioned among the very best in the Country, even it though it is consistently rated there.  For example, you prefer The Golf Club, Tim Weiman doesn't appreciate the real estate part of it.  It seems there is always a disclaimer put after a sentence when it comes to MV.  Never does it seem that the answer is this is a great course, with great architecture, period.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

All the posts in this thread and not one mention of the name Desmond Muirhead. This is why the thread should probably be renamed Desmond Muirhead, a lack of respect?

[Matt_Ward]

Dan:

Do you really believe MV is a top ten golf course in the USA? In all fairness -- I don't. I also think it has gotten a huge boost from having an annual stop on the PGA Tour in order to keep itself "out front" for all to see.

Jack Nicklaus has clearly sought to elevate MV in the same vein as Jones did with Augusta.

Dan -- again I don't understand when you say, "Very rarely does this course get mentioned among the very best in the Country ..." Hello? How bout the fact that MV is consistently among the top 25-50 courses in the USA? I'd say that's at the top of the charts given the vast number of courses in the USA and the very, very small number that reach that elevated level.

What I need to grasp Dan is who you believe is minimizing the qualities of the layout? Clearly, it's not the top magazines because MV is a mainstay in that regard.

Like I said with my earlier post to you -- some on GCA may not be Jack fans simply because they have played a very limited number of his designs and they may not fully appreciate the evolution of his thinking over the years given the types of courses he seems to be designing these days that I have played.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt,
In all of your times there, do you recognize it as being anything like any of the other Desmond Muirhead courses you have played?

The reason why I ask, you keep refering to this as Jack's course. Is this from the view point of it being an original Jack work?

[Matt_Ward]

Tommy:

One will never confuse MV with other Muirhead hands-on creations like Stone Harbor and Aberdeen, to name just two.

Mea culpa on my part in not linking Desmond with Jack at MV.  

Clearly, it appears to me that Jack role / presence was to ensure that the "creative license" of Desmond would not go into full overdrive. Their combined efforts are well done IMHO -- I just don't see how MV gets a lack of respect as Dan suggested.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Matt, This is what I know.

Desmond Murihead did not really get into his symbolism phase until like ten years after he broke-off with Jack, at his first US course he did upon returning from what he called a sabbatical in Australia, where he built something like three golf courses and designed two cities.

When Jack came to Desmond, it was because Jack had broke of with Dye after Harbor Town, whether that was a partnership with Dye or not, I don't know but Desmond I'm sure didn't have a problem with it at the time given Nicklaus recordas a professional. However, while the partnership did produce some godd golf courses.

I'm also fortunate to have Desmond's plans for Muirfield Village in case anyone ever wanted to discount his involvement, or lack of it, including the original routing in Desmond's hand. I do this only to honor him for what he did for me as a friend as well as honor his memory which many hoped would be fleeting.

But, you just had to really know the guy to really understand how really great he really was. Its just like his symbols or symbolic golf architecture; they scarred the face of many a golf course site--it was once you got past all that stuff did you really see what it was all about.

[Dan_Belden]

Come on Matt.  You just made my point for me.  When you say something on the order of " the course gets a huge boost
from having an annual tour stop" then you are certainly implying that MV is not worthy of its ranking. ( 8th in current GW modern rating).  Why is that.  It seems to me that most people on this web site don't respect its high rankings in the magazines.  Obviously you are in this category. I want to now why .  What is wrong or not good about the architecture there that makes you say it is overrated.  

[Dan_Belden]

Tommy:  It would be very interesting to contrast what is on Desmond's plans, and what is there now.  I know the routing hasn't changed, but it would be interesting to see what has.  
  I am not sure if you have been there or not, but it is a superb routing that takes advantage of some very neat topography for golf.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Dan,
Tell you what, one day maybe I'll bring them out to Rustic Canyon and we can peruse them. Lots of stuff there from entire community plans showing three golf courses--one of them being a psuedo executive course; Muirfield Golf Club, and the Country Club which looks like a lot of holes with water on them. the original routing is interesting because it has the current routing in pen over a proposed routing where I think it was the par 5, 6th or 7th was actually a par 3 and a par 4.

Tom MacWood and I have talked about doing an In My Opinion piece regarding the plans and the course, maybe this will light a fire under our collective asses to do it!

[Mark_Fine]

I've played MV several times as well as numerous DM courses and if there is any DM in MV I don't see it!  The course is all Jack's in my opinion.
Mark

By the way, I thought it was interesting that during the GCA meeting at Baltusrol, Ron Prichard said Desmond Muirhead wasn't a "golf architect" he was a "landscape architect".  Interesting!

[Forrest Richardson]

I was scrolling though this thead hoping someone would chime in with Desmond's contribution. Thank you, Tommy!

I spoke many times with Desmond about Muirfield — it most certainly is his work and very little of the initial routing and details were from Jack. Jack has added his touches over the years, and now it reflects a skin of the Nicklaus Organization.

Like desmond said: "The routing is the anatomy — the bones — all else is flesh."

Muirfield Village will be changed (in skin tone, color, texture, wrinkles, face-lift, etc.) many, many times over. Bunkers will grow hair, tees will shift, creek edges will be fortified, and trees will come and go. But the heart and soul — the way the course relates itself to the golfer — will never change.

Thank you, desmond. It was a grand piece of work. You were so humble all those years. While you told those close to you what you did, you were never too vocal or rude. That was classy.

[Dan_Belden]

Tommy: Deal.
  When starting this thread I wasn't exactly sure where it would go, but I was hoping that it might prove insightful and gain some, or even more respect, for a superb golf course.  Desmond or Jack, there is some great work here that deserves some discussion.  
  I am going to throw out the 14th.   A really fun and nasty hole that always seems to cause your heart to beat a little faster.  It is a lay up hole( unless you are John Daly) with a green that opens up from the left side of the fairway.  The problem is that there is a creek down the left side of the fairway that eventually bisects the fairway at about 260, then continues to run down the right side of the fairway and green. In some ways it reminds me very much of the 8th at Pine Valley. Another short par 4 that makes the heart beat just a little faster.  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Forrest,
Wonderfully stated.

I think if most here would have known him, that charm would have just taken over and won them all over. In a conversation once with Brad Klein, he called him a snake charmer and I can't think of a more accurate description.

If Ron Prichard did indeed call him a landscape architect, I can tell you from experience Desmond would have just responded with some classy and funny retort. In truth, Desmond loved land planning. He loved designing cities ala Olmstead, so in truth, Ron Prichard was some what right. Still, Desmond loved golf.

Judging from the statement by Prichard, I would assume he never had the opportunity to meet Desmond Muirhead because if he did, he would undoubtedly developed a fondness just like all that meet him usually did. He lured you in a hypnotic fashion and then entertained you. Its something snake charmers do really good.

Dan, There are many that are willing to doubt the credibility of Desmond Muirhead's involvement of the design of Muirfield Village. It will always be Jack's course in their eyes, and I have to say, Desmond hated that. Thats why always on these posts, I'll be the first to try to get it right, which is that their names should both be on the scorecard, and Jack Nickalus knows that too.

[Mark_Fine]

Ron did make that statement about DM but remember he is a real purist!  I agree with Forrest that the routing is the bones and the key to a great golf course.  It MV is indeed DM's routing then he surely needs to get much of the credit for the MV design.  That said, the body of the course reflects nothing of DM that I can see.  Does anyone differ with me on that?  

[Forrest Richardson]

About Desmond's other work: Much of it was varied and the real neat stuff has been lost or is so old it isn't well known. I've visited a few of his California courses. The rest I saw through photos.

Regarding being called a landscape architect, I "spoke" with Desmond last evening and this is what he said he would have said in reply,

"Well, that may be. You know the problem with most of these so-called golf architects is that they barely trained at all. Some of them can't even find the right end of a pencil and there are plenty that have to hire people because they can't read a topo map. And that's the truth, you know. I'm really not bothered being called a 'Landscape Architect', in fact I rather enjoy it. Beats the hell out of having to be lumped into the pile with vermon such as _____________, or _____________, or ______________. And I haven't even began to mention the pros. My God, _______________ probably can't even put his pants on without asking some management consultant. And that's the absolute truth."

[Mark_Fine]

Forrest,
I see Ron's comment about DM struck a nerve.  I'm sure you would have had an interesting conversation with him if you were at Baltusrol that day.

How DM got rolled into Ron's talk that day, I can't really recall.  Maybe someone else who was there does.  I just know he was on his soap box talking about how the game is going in the wrong direction, etc.  DM may have been taking the brunt of what some of those other ______'s you mentioned should have been feeling.  Who knows.

Getting back to this post, though I have only played maybe ten DM courses, MV seems to be far more Nicklaus than DM to me, but who is to say when you have two guys working together on something like that.  Is Harbour Town more Dye or Nicklaus?  
Mark

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