[W.H. Cosgrove]

Not the first time I have disagreed with Lou....

Although the golf course is designed from the back and hazards are placed at a distance assumed to create options for the best players.  Shorter tee boxes are placed in an effort to achieve the same results for players who hit the ball less far.  

The result of course is that a mid eighties player who might hit his drives 225 off the tee completely avoids the hazards by playing from a tee box designed for a player who hits it 266+.  

The situation at my home course breaks down like this.  Club games are run from the white tees(6300 yards).  During the winter months in the Northwest this can be quite a test.  During summer dry months the course shortens considerably.  During summer the best players should move back.  Mid level players should stay on the whites.  Seniors should be playing from the next tee up.  

Interestingly the Women always play from their rear tee.  When in all honesty it is far too long for 99% of them.    With that in mind who really has the big ego?

[Tim Taylor]

Interesting topic. For me and my 13.6 USGA index, I've found that length off the tee is not the problem so much as the longer shots into the greens and the tough recoveries after missing said greens. At my club I usually always play the blues (6583 yards). There are really only three holes where I'll play the blues differently than the whites (6285  yards).

Yardage isn't everything of course, but in general terms I've found that I can not make a fool of myself up to around 6800 yards. Of course a lot of it has to do with were the yardage comes from. Long par 4s (over, say, 430 yards) or long par 3s (greater than 180) cause much greater problems than 570 yard par 5s do.

On Monday I played 36 at Southern Dunes outside Orlando. The first 18 I played from the blues (6800) and shot 99! The second 18 I played from the whites (6300) and shot 91. And the 91 included a couple of bad scores due to "going for" shots that I usually wouldn't go for.

Interestingly enough I parred the #1 handicap hole from both the blues and the whites. Driver, 4 iron from the blues. Driver, 6 iron from the whites.

I don't have any firm rules but as guidelines I try to stay under 6700/6800 yards, 130 slope and 72 rating. Once in a while I'll step back to the 7000 yard tees and have a go at it. I usually regret it.

I apply the same principle whether I'm playing my club, a local course, or a "special" course - Cuscowilla, Tidewater, Southern Dunes...

TimT

[Bob_Huntley]

I am beginning to feel as though I belong to the untermenschen, hearing talk of a "hack' only being able to drive the ball 240yards. Here on the Peninsula with heavy air, little roll a bit of fog thrown in, I feel 240 is a monstrous hit. Of course I have seen Mahaffey and Wigler out beyond the 290 mark but to me, that is superman territory.

There was a TV/Radio personality at Olympic some years ago by the name of Doug Pledger who always said if "you can't par the course from the whites, what on earth are you playing the blues."

[KDOG]

 In regards to your post, the last time I played from the tips in a match i got ranned over 6 and 5.  It wasn't pretty.  Oh well, I guess I'll stick to the golds.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom H:

I'm just having some fun when I say the term "REAL" golf. Look, I can frankly care less where people play as long as they play fast.

I do think that far too many times there will be people making an assessment of a course simply from the front and middle tees who don't even turn their heads to see where the blues are located.

When you go the blues the sheer intensity goes up dramatically and the angles you are forced to contend with also force a higher level of shotmaking.

[THuckaby2]

Fine with me also, Matt.  I'd just add that the vast majority of golfers SHOULD never turn and look at the blues, that they get all the intensity they need from the whites or closer... But for golfers of a decent skill level, yes, I'd agree there is more to be seen from the back tees.

TH

[Steve Lang]

I second the opinion of Bob Huntley's Olympic reference..  Where can you par it from?

When I started playing in the Woodlands back in 92, about 80 lbs ago and when my wife was travelling a lot for work, I got down to a 5.3 index.. playing mainly from the Blues (2nd in from tips).  My favorite marshall, the adoptive father type, challenged me to par the West Course from the white tees before I wore myself out from the Blues, even though I was playing fairly well..  Long-story-short, it took about three months and a lot of near misses to bring it all the way home in par.  That was a great learning experience, and made for some fun trash talking with that Marshall.  It then took me about two years to do it from the Blues and I've never been truly consistent enough to do it from the tips.  

We all need a reality check.  and BTW I for one now consider myself a hack if I only drive it 240 yds.  But I do play qucikly.  Gettin old is hell, the older I get, the longer I used to be!

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Of course, if you shoot a 110, you're probably less likely to be someone that owuld really appreciate the architecture anyway.

  Ahem... we appreciate it.  Our theoretically envisioned shots have nothing to do with our results with the golf ball.  We get more angles to the green, get intimate with the rough, develope bunker recognition by repetition of meeting with them (very formal sometimes), hate water, love a topped shot if she runs (thus we see more action in the land), get to tee off last, get to see how balls roll across the whole green or surrounds, and rarely do we have to mess with the arduous ordeal of pulling and replacing the flagstick.

  In picking a tee color, I look at the par three distances, how windy it is, carry yardages, and then just go along with whatever everybody else is doing.

[Bill Yates]

Why not play from both?

You guys probably negotiate for strokes on the first tee, so why not negotiate for distance?  Afterall, the strokes you are trying to get are to make up for your needing two woods and a wedge to every par 4 played from the tips.

I know testosterone gets in the way, but perhaps this would enable all players in your group to both be competitive and have a little fun.  Just a thought.

Bill Yates

[Lou Duran]

Cos-  I don't know that we are in disagreement on this one.  There are some architects who take great pains in placing most tees and some hazards at distances and angles to challenge all types of players.  My personal preference is to play from the backs even though my score likely suffers as a result of it.  My main point is that we should play and compete from the set of tees of our choice.  In my group at home, we have several guys that due to age and other reasons prefer to play the forward tees.  We setup the game accordingly; even within the same foursome, some play the backs and some the fronts.  At $2 per bet, no one ever gets hurt too badly.  BTW, our disagreement on Kiawah-River maybe had something to do with the tees we played.  And within our group, three of us played the backs, and Ed Morrissett played the fronts.  Which tees did you play?

Mr. Huntley- let's not make this personal!  You are the antithesis of a hack.  Like Mr. Morrissett who humbly told us upfront that he was not a very good player, and then proceeded to hit most fairways and greens, I would take either of you as a partner without hesitation from whatever set of tees you feel comfortable.  I am talking about the 100+ player who on his best shot can't hit the ball 240 yards AND the fairway, but insists on playing the course for its full worth.

Concerning playing the front tees until you can shoot par, isn't that akin to dumbing down the examination?  This may not be a good analogy, but should schools have different sets of tests so that everyone has the opportunity to get an A?  It seems to me that if a guy like Matt Ward would play the front tees to just shoot a good score, a big part of the challenge and interest of the game would be lost to him.  And I would wager that his skills would diminish over the long-run.  I thought that golf was supposed to be difficult (something to the effect of exhausting yourself, but never the subject).

[Bob_Huntley]

Some five or six years ago, a visiting college side played a match against some club members of advancing years. Instead of the usual stroke grovelling routine, each college player gave up his difference in age with his opponent, in yards, except on par threes. I drove, picked up the ball and walked forty seven yards, dropped the ball and played from there.
 A fairly good game was had by all, although on a couple of occasions even after my perambulations I was some distance away from my opponent's ball.

I might try this at Pasatiempo!

[W.H. Cosgrove]

OK LOu we don't disagree that much..I knew I could pick on you a bit in good humor.  I played from the longer but not the back set of tees at River Course.  ]

My only point was that if you play from too far back and don't have a load of length, the hazards are simply out of play.  The emphasis is too much on length rather than shot making.  

I must admit that the older I get, the shorter I hit it and the more interested I become in shotmaking!! :-/

[Doug Siebert]

Play the course as it was meant to be played.  I always say that if you find yourself hitting wedges into most of the par 4s, move back.  If you find yourself hitting fairway woods (or needing three) to reach most of the par 4s, move up.  Within that range its up to how much challenge you seek.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Jonathan,

When you go to Sand Hills this summer, my advice is to mix it up between blue and white. Probably play the back in the morning as the wind is lighter, but don't be afraid to mix it up during the same round. There is no course rating at SH, so don't worry about your score. 4 and 18 NEED to be played from both sets of tees and you will remember them as 4 separate holes

[ForkaB]

Bob H

Love that "difference in age/yards" way of handicapping, increasingly so as the years go by........

However, rather than bringing my ball forward, I would far prefer to be allowed kick my young buck opponent's ball backwards.  That'll bring long irons and shotmaking back into the game.........

[Bob_Huntley]

Rihc.

What a good idea. I'll try it out the next time we do it.

Bob

[ForkaB]

Bbo

Try it at Pasa.  You've got seniority......

PS--ever hear the story of Henry Cotton in the one and only time he played mixed foursomes with his wife Babs?  He told her sternly to do anything but put him in the rough and then proceded to stripe his ball 260 or so down the first into a little bit of semi.  Babs looked at her lie, did a 180 degree turn and hit her 5 wood halfway back down the 1st fairway.  "Never put me in the rough, either!" she said.

[THuckaby2]

Rich - wouldn't doing this at Pasa defeat the entire purpose of the "holes won" scoring system?  I thought the idea there was to have no handicapping whatsoever....

Sorry to be so humorless about this, any other time it's one hell of a great idea... and if Mr. Huntley insists on it, I sure as hell won't be the one to tell him no...

Whaddya think?

TH

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