Golf in Spain?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I am going to be going to Spain in a month or two on a business trip.  I think I am going to be able to tack on 3-4 extra days at the end of the trip for some golf.

What does anyone know about golf in Spain.  Obviously everyone is aware of Valderamma, but beyond that I do not know too much.  It seems from my initial looking that most all of the golf is concentrated around Valderamma in the Coasta Del Sol area of the country, and I will definitely be trying to get down there.  I have read some things about Torrequebrada GC in  that region also.

Does anyone have any more information?  Does anyone know about any good golf in Northern Spain, or near Madrid?

Any golf or non-golf advise would be appreciated.

[Bill_McBride]

Turboe, I have heard the southeast coast of Spain referred to as the "Costa del Golf."  I understand there are a lot of retired British ex-pats living down there, drinking gin and bitters and hitting bump-and-run shots.  Have fun in Spain!  We met an American young lady in Italy who told us that all they eat in Spain is ham and eggs!

[Mike Clayton]

Turboe

The best course in Madrid is Peurto de Hierro where they played the Madrid Open for many years. Club de Campo is nearby but not as good.
Peurto de Hierro is a Colt course ,I think.
The best course in Spain is El Saler in Valencia.It's is a public course and probably not in great condition but it is right by the sea and I cannot stress enough how much better it would be to go there as opposed to the south of the country
Valderamma definitly not 'a must see'
Not sure what the weather will be like in Valencia -probably chilly but not too bad

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

I saw something about El Saler in a "greatest golf courses of the world" book by Gary Player.  But it was Gary Player and he listed his own Cougar Point at Kiawah Island as one of the best in the world also so I didnt know how much stock to give Garys report.  I thought maybe his brother in law might have designed it.

[Mike Clayton]

At least he didn't describe it as 'the greatest course of it's type in the world'

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Cougar Point isnt one of the best golf courses on its island let alone in the world.  Sorry Mike V.

Anyway I was just reading about Seve growing up on the Royal Pedrena Golf Club which is up in Basque country anyone know anything about it.  Or anyone know about a good search engine where you can look up international golf courses and get opjective opinions on them?

[Paul Turner]

Turboe

Pedrena is a Colt course.  Although it might have been changed some since.  Tom Simpson loved the course.  It's quite hilly  and plays fast, from what I understand, and it has some extensive views out to sea.

There is a website for Pedrena, try a search with google.

[Lou Duran]

golfinspain.com has some information.

I've played a few courses in southern Spain.  Sotogrande- Old, Valderrama's sister course is very worthwhile playing.  Valderrama was closed for extended repairs when I was there several years ago, but a number of acquaintances familiar with the course, without exception, extolled its virtues.

If you like RTJ, Las Brisas and Los Naranjos are interesting.  Golf Rio Real just west of Marbella is an old style Javier Arana (Spain's own prominent architect) course with some good holes (though a little too tight for safety).

The old course in Malaga, a Simpson design I think, was not much when I played it many years ago.  Neither was the course in La Coruna (with a wavy mark over the n) in the Galician region of spain (NE).  It is my understanding that Seve's home course in Pedrena is also rather quirky, and charming primarily because of its history (I have not played it, but saw an exhibition that Seve had there, and I was not impressed).

While in Madrid, you may wish to see if Rees Jones has a course coming out of the ground.  I understand that it was in the planning stages last Fall.  Golf in Spain is still primarily for tourists and the aristrocacy.  Not many of the common folk play the game, specially in the big cities.

I have heard from a number of sources that El Saler is among the best in Spain and the continent.

[Johnny B]

I am just back from a weeks golf in Costa del Sol - I was also there in October and have played 11 of the courses - it is reasonable golf but a little similar to a lot of courses in USA except built on mostly sites that are either too hilly or too tight - however they are reasonably good fun to play especially with weather a lot better than we have in Ireland.  Here are my choices in order:
1. Las Brisas - a trent jones course that was a candidate for the Ryder Cup - private course but some visitors allowed
2. San Roque - beside Valderama - Dave Thomas design and reasobaly solid golf.
3. Parador de Malaga - near Malaga Airport - a semi-links by Harry Colt amended by Tom Simpson - interesting with lots of old green sites - not sure of exact history but was affected by Spanish Civil war I think.
4. Los Naranjos
5. Rio Real - a little tight but a few very good holes
6. Almenara - 27 holes near Valderama - hilly but great greens and many good holes - Dave Thomas design
7. La Cala - 36 holes - wonderful scenery and a mixture of good holes and not so good but mostly because of the hilly terrain.
8. Santa Clara - new course - pleasant to play.

Hope this helps - email me if you want more detailed information.
Regards,  Johnny Browne

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

There is a chance for me to go to Spain, as well.

Mike,
How far is El Saler from other destinations?  It seemed last time I looked, it was impossible to meld a trip with both Costa del Sol and El Saler in one trip.

Still, might be worth it to get to El Saler alone.

BCD

[Mike Clayton]

Ben
Valencia is on the east coast and a little south of Madrid.
There is a Trent Jones course in Valencia also called El Bosque which isn't too bad.
El Saler is definetly worth the trip though - and it's easily the best course in the country and one of the best on the continent.

Pedrena is a Colt design on a small bit of land but it is fun and has some decent holes. The second is a terrific long par three and the hole closest to Seve's boyhood home .Legend has it that the second was the hole he played at night when the members were gone and where he learned the best short game any man ever owned.

[ForkaB]

Mike

This is very much off topic, but your comments on Seve and his otherworldly short game make me want to ask you, as one who knows Seve and golf and GCA--just what do you think "architecture" means to a genius like Seve?  Thinking of Lytham (the "car park" one) and Oak Hill, it seems to me (who is just an interested hacker) that he probably has a very very different mindset regarding course design than even extremely gifted golfers such as yourself.  What think ye?

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Johnny B,

Where did you stay when you played around that area?  I wonder what kind of dollar (Euro) value I am going to be looking at.  I will just be by myself and am basically looking for clean and safe, but it doesnt have to be at the Ritz-Carleton.

Let me know.

[mike clayton]

Rich
I never spoke to Seve about architecture but the two bits of work I know of have not been recieved well by any player I have spoken too - not that that is necessarily a bad thing .
The work at Crans in Switzerland consisted of turning every green into upturned saucers and the cut went from an average of 2 to 3 under to 5 over in one year.
Tee to green the course is very simple so he has to be doing what most pros do and designing around the skills of their own game.The guys who play there joke that his short game is the only one that can handle the shots around the greens.
  Nor have  I ever seen a green where more ridiculous things have happened than the 17th he redesigned at Valderrama.
I guess it's a copy of the principle of 15 at Augusta except you don't see balls coming off the middle of that green and back into the water.

His quote about the criticism of the work in Switzerland was something like ' I don't take any notice of these players but if people like Nicklaus or Trent-Jones were critical perhaps I would listen'
Seve always was his own man with  opinions that were very hard to budge and I suspect he has designed exactly the way he wants - I would be amazed if he had ever read Hunter, Simpson, Thomas or Mackenzie -let alone any of the newer stuff. Seve only ever did things exactly the way he wanted and he was good enough to get his own way most of the time.
When it came to playing he really knew how to play holes and courses and to hit the shots the holes demanded.
With his imagination you would think his courses - I have never seen any of his new work- would be like the courses he excelled on -St Andrews, Augusta, Royal Melbourne - where the driving isn't cramped but there are so many options.Also lots of tough shots around the greens.

[ForkaB]

Thanks a lot, Mike.  I really appreciate your time and your insight.  I have played one Seve course, once--Westerwood in Scotland.  It was extremely "unfair" and maybe it was because the man himself did in fact want to deisgn around his own incredible capabilities.