[CHrisB]

In the Austin Golf Club thread, Charlie reminded me that the course was built with no yardage markers, other than yardage plates on the tees. It is pretty refreshing to play such courses, because club/shot selection is a little more of a guessing game, and playing without yardages essentially introduces another skill element into the game, that of reading the terrain and visually judging distances.

What other modern courses have no yardage markers?

Could a public course ever get away with having no yardage markers?

[Scott_Burroughs]

Friar's Head has none (others here said so).

What about Sand Hills?

[Jason Mandel]

while the course may not have yarder markers, and it may be nice for nostalgia purposes.  i assume the course has yardage books, which, after some trial and error, you learn to trust.  

the only course that i've played without markers is not a modern course, merion east.  i regretted the moment that I didnt purchase the yardage book in the club house, instead being forced to rely on my caddie.  which would have been nice if it was one of those merion lifers that have been there for 20 years, but mine was just a nice local college kid.

as far as a modern public course not having yardage markers, i would have to say it could never happen anymore.  it would simply slow up play too much and hurt the bottom line.

jason

[Charlie]

While AGC has a yardage book that has about 3 yardages per hole that is mainly sold as a souvenir,  not many of our members actually use it.  When the course was built they had to beg Ben to put the yardage plates on the tees and to actually put tee markers on the tees.

[Jason Mandel]

thanks for the info charlie.  i guess i was a little suprised, as the yardage book they just came out with for our course, does have much more than 3 yardages per hole.

although you may only use the yardage book as a souvenier, one of my fondest memories of merion was my host telling he how he has had his yardage book for about 25 years, and most of the yardages he has are from landmarks that he has identified and that is what he trusts.

AGC sounds like a lot of fun to play, have you played neigboring Spanish Oaks, if so, what are your thoughts of it?

jason

[SPDB]

Merion. (to Pat M.'s chagrin)  

Whoops, just realized you only asked for modern courses. I think i'll leave it up though, since you seldom get a chance to illustrate an example where Pat has admitted he's wrong.  

[Charlie]

I have only driven around Spanish Oaks.  It does not really jump out at me as being to different from a lot of hill country residential golf courses. Although their Professional staff there ranks with the best in country and I have to say they have one of the best practice facilities you'll find anywhere in the country.  Everyone I know who has played it comments on the 8 blind tee shots you have.  As for our yardage book, even though it does not have a lot yardages, it something nice to have since Mr. Crenshaw has a description of each hole that he wrote.

[Kevin_Reilly]

What about Sand Hills?

Has 'em.

[George Pazin]

I seem to recall Pat also mentioning The Atlantic Club as a course that lacks many of the accoutrements that some of us don't particularly care for - no yardage markers, no yardages on sprinklers, no ball washers - things like that that can sometimes clutter up the course. It's obviously not for everyone, but it sounds really cool to me. Of course, I'm notorious among my friends for ignoring yardages anyway.

Long Island sounds like the closest thing to a golfers paradise in the US. Too bad you have to deal with all those New Yorkers!

(Just kidding, many of my closest and dearest friends are NYers.)

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Pazin,

Atlantic does have yardages on sprinklers, but it is an otherwise, extremelly low key golf course.

SPDB,

It happens so rarely, , that the words are difficult to remember.

[Forrest Richardson]

Don't all golf courses have landmarks which can yield clues as to the length to the target from a particular spot?

Aren't yardage markers an advancement which is logical to a game played across an obstacle course?

Don't modern markings draw from early markings on courses — such as the stone markers which very early on marked The Old Course and surveyed its exact diatance?

Is there a significant difference between the advancement of archaic markers on golf courses to modern markings on courses — versus the advancement of messengering letters written on sheepskin to the advancement of communication offered by this website?

- - -

I do not find it at all "refreshing" to play a course so unmarked that it becomes a continual guessing game. While I do not enjoy over-marking and a cluttered look, I find modern marking convenient...much as the early golfers would most certainly find the markings in place at the time.

[Donnie Beck]

Why don't all Classical courses run out and add GPS units to golf carts   Wouldn't that be a great idea  

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Modern upscale public courses wouldn't work without yardage markers. Carts with GPS are the trend on these courses. Anything to speed up play works.
I think a modern private course with limited membership along the lines of Austin GC, Old Sandwich, Boston GC, etc would work without yardage markers as the founder usually dictates the ambiance of this type of club.On the other hand, my prior club built in 1990 was a corporate owned golf factory with charity outings scheduled every Monday and 50 corporate members who used the club for heavy customer golf during weekdays. Yardage markers are essential for this type of club. I was surprised ownership didn't get GPS carts.

[Gene Greco]

Friar's Head not only lacks yardage markers on the course, it doesn't have the yardages of the holes on the scorecard.

[ForkaB]

I played an interclub match a couple of weeks ago at a course (Dunnikier Park) that had neither yardage markers on the fairways nor even on the tees!  There was a signfiicant wind about on the day, and I found that I hit some of my best shots on the "par" 3's where I just played by feel.

I like having yardages out on the course, but they are by no means necessary, or even helpful!

[Mike_DeVries]

The Kingsley Club, at the  beginning, had no yardage markers and no tee markers -- it was choose where you wanted to play from and go for it.  Pressure from players who wanted to know where to play from and were accustomed to knowing yardages from all points led to sprinkler head yardages and a full set of markers on the tees.

Two of the lack of tee markers thoughts were that it was a members' course, so everyone would be(come) familiar with where they wanted to play from and to choose from the variety of options available and without markers, the maintenance crew wouldn't have to get off the machinery to move the markers off and on the tee surface.  During events, markers would be put out for equitable play.

I remember Yale as being without yardage markings when I was there about 8-9 years ago -- I thought it was very cool, as I had never been there and had to "feel" the distance, and when I got it right, it was exhilarating!

[Scott_Burroughs]

Mike,

I played Yale in June of 2002 and seem to remember knowing my yardages somehow.  I don't remember if it was sprinkler heads or something else.

[Pete Buczkowski]

I don't really understand this debate about fairway yardages.  Isn't it up to the player to get the yardage from the sprinkler head?  If you don't want them, simply don't look.

Anyways, how is a marked course any different from taking a caddie and getting yardages from him/her?  Actually, don't caddies give more information?

I agree that tee markers and card yardage is another topic.  I believe the Double Eagle club is another that doesn't use tee markers (mentioned in the Weiskopf-Player Shell's match).

[John_Cullum]

I like having yardages out on the course, but they are by no means necessary, or even helpful!

I don't see how you could say they are not helpful. If a player is unfamiliar with a course knowing the yardage certainly is a benefit. Cary Middlecoff once said the most significant benefit he saw to scoring during his career was when players started playing by yardage.

[ForkaB]

Sarge

I probably should have said "necessarily helpful."  I personally am not good enough to really "know" (in muscle memory terms) the difference on the day between 160 and 161 (or even 155 and 168, if we are to be brutally honest...).  I'm sure Middlecoff, Nicklaus, Miller, Langer, etc. do and did, but they were/are freaks vis a vis the rest of us golfers, no?

[John_Cullum]

Rich,
Certainly tour players can do much more with the info. And I would guess that most higher than 18 handicappers can make practically no use of the yardage if its over 140. And I think that probably represents 90% of "golfers." So we're not that far apart on this.

On another note, the dumbest thing I have seen is sprinklers that are numbered instead of marked. This is done at Old Memorial. Only the caddy has the "code book." So the player is totally depndent on the caddy for the correct yardage.

[Jim Franklin]

Sarge -

Pine Valley does it that way too although they now have yardage books for guests with the codes to the yardages. I guess Old Memorial was taking one from the PVGC book.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Nobody has brought up pin positions thus far.  Do pin sheets help?  Do colored flags help?  I think that they do; for me they influence my club selection and my par 5 strategy.  Say I have 250 yds left to the center for my 2nd shot.  If the pin is up front or tucked, I'll lay back to 80 yards for a full SW.  If the pin is back, I'll try to get as close as possible to the green (unless there's a bunker within reach) and hit a pitch-and-run third.  

[THuckaby2]

Interesting re what helps golfers... I played a course pre-opening awhile back, and there were no pins... a hole was cut in each green, but we had absolutely no way of knowing where.  These greens are large and undulating, also... some will be familiar with the course - Shadow Lakes in Brentwood, CA...

The results?  Knocked it stiff several times (luck!), played out of my mind great.

This just by aiming at the center of the green each time.

Lesson?  Well I don't know, I do agree with Pete that if I'm playing a round I care about, I want all information on this accout also.  But the results of that round weigh powerfully with me, when I am thinking rationally.

TH

[Neal_Meagher]

I would personally love to have no yardage markers anywhere through the green, only a simple marker at each tee giving overall distance.  However, the cat's been out of the bag far too long, which is too bad because those with good distance perception have no advantage.  Pity.

Yet, while it may be nigh impossible for a public course to go markerless, as has already been discussed here, there are still those few private courses, such as Friar's Head and The Institute here in northern California (completed in 1999) that rely on member knowledge, and in the case of The Institute, caddies, one of which accompanies each and every player.

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