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THuckaby2

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #75 on: March 09, 2004, 09:24:24 AM »
David:

That is also well-reasoned, makes sense and illustrates well some of the issues with the system as it is.  But again, how will you effect the changes you suggest?  What magazine, or other organization, is going to find these super-raters with the time, inclination, and wisdom to carry this out?  How will you convince the current magazines to do away with the systems they have in place now / or change the perception in the golf world that these rankings matter?

See, I have no problems with the WHAT going on here (though I expect Mike and perhaps others will continue to debate you - and as you see, Mike did - our posts crossed and I am adding this after the fact in a modification).  In Geoff's book, and in your posts here, each of you have clearly illustrated the problems with ratings systems as they are done now.

What I want is the HOW.  That is, HOW are you going to effect fixes/changes?

And my assumption is it can't be done.  But I am absolutely open to ideas and in fact clamoring for them....

But if it can't be done - this wholesale wiping out of the current system and replacing it that you suggest - what CAN be done, practically, to make this more fair for all courses, with ratings and rankings that more correctly reflect the proper reality and act for the good of golf and not the opposite?

I think you make a good start with:

"What I am suggesting is that the magazines consider the characteristics of useful books like Doaks. "

Can you flesh out mechanically how this would work?  It sounds intriguing to me..  

Kelly:  the answer for you is to change perception of these ratings and rankings.  As time goes on and more acclaim gets given to the Sand Hills', Pacific Dunes', Rustic Canyons, Wild Horses and others like it in the golf world, the worm will turn.  Golf perceptions are an ever-changing thing... hang in there, man.

TH

ps to Dave - I didn't know you got to play Friar's Head - very cool!  But you know what?  I talked to two people who have played both Bandon and FH and did indeed prefer the former to the latter, overall.  So how inconceivable is it?  It is to you, and it sure is to me - I think they're insane, from what I hear about FH - and remember I really like BD - but to me this goes to show that there remains no "correct" opinion when it comes to assessment of golf courses.  People look for so many different things... and as Mike said, who's to say we are right and they are wrong?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2004, 09:34:14 AM by Tom Huckaby »

ForkaB

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #76 on: March 09, 2004, 09:43:39 AM »
Great to see this thread morphing into another raters circle jerk!  I've never seen nor am likely to see Tallgrass, so this is much more enlightening. ;)

I think KBM has it right.  Let the raters decide how to design the golf courses BEFORE they are built.  Let us know before they are open to play what their ratings are and a lot of harnd wringing, kerfuffle and Ran's cyberspace can be saved.

This is, in fact, the way that the world of fine wine is going, as I pointed out a year or so ago.  There is a guy who can chemically test wine en primeur and predict the Parker rating 3-5 years out with incredible accuracy.  All Dr. Klein and Mr. Whitten and whoever the guy is today at GW need to do is tweak their "systems" to make them just a little bit more predictive than analytical.  Since they are all going in this direction anyway, this should not be too hard a thing to do, should it?

THuckaby2

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #77 on: March 09, 2004, 09:57:20 AM »
Rich:

"Kerfuffle"?

Great word.   ;)

I'm more than ready to stop the circle jerk, btw.  Allowing the last word is just not one of my strong suits.  But dammit, I shall try.  ;D

TH

Brian_Gracely

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #78 on: March 09, 2004, 10:16:09 AM »
Alright, that's enough!!  Rich is now using words that common folks can't even look up.... ;)

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=kerfuffle


ForkaB


Mike_Cirba

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2004, 11:13:40 AM »
Great to see this thread morphing into another raters circle jerk!  

Rich;

What other mechanism but "ratings" presently exists to give Tallgrass the "respect" Tommy claims it's not getting?


ForkaB

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2004, 11:22:01 AM »
Mike

Our collective and unconditional love. :-*

Mike_Cirba

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #82 on: March 09, 2004, 11:28:12 AM »
Mike

Our collective and unconditional love. :-*

Exactly, Rich.  So, we get about 500 of us on here saying it's great and to use your terminology, "circle jerking" ourselves about it.  

The folks at Tallgrass will be so pleased.  ;)


ForkaB

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #83 on: March 09, 2004, 12:16:18 PM »
Mike

I'm disappointed that this thread has so little to say about the golf course and so much to say about abstract concepts/arguments about "rating."  Maybe this anomaly actually answers Tommy's iniital question.  Maybe Tallgrass doesn't get enough respect becuae "raters" are spending too much time looking into their and their fellow raters' navels adn not enough time really thinking about what makes any golf course "respectable."

Let me put it another way.  Would Rodney Dangerfield rank in the top 100 on a list of "Classic" comedians?  If he didn't (which is very possible, depending on how you composed the rating panel and set and weighted the criteria), does that mean that he hasn't gained "respect" or even doesn't deserve "respect?"   I think not, at least from me.

DMoriarty

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #84 on: March 09, 2004, 12:23:20 PM »
Mike,

I think it would take much more than 'tweaks of a statistical nature' to fix the system.  

For example, throwing out outliers most likely wont help and might hurt.  I just cant imagine the sample sizes are big enough to justify throwing away the outliers.  Doing so anyway reaks of manipulation.  Plus, it may well be that the better raters sometimes have the outliers, and it seems a shame to throw away their scores.  

Standard deviations might give off the aura of science, but unless we are dealing with data based on a system of similar valuation, the numbers are still worthless.  Plus, my guess is that if we went to standard deviations, we'd find that we have hundreds of courses which are statistically inseperable.

What's the message to your readers when courses with a tight range of 5s and 6s (or 6s and 7s-- I dont know your scale) makes the list.  "No one had strong feelings about it one way or another.  Never mind that noone loved it.  Noone disliked it therefore it is one of the top courses in the US."    Hardly a ringing endorsement and hardly aimed at identifying anything other than the courses at the high end of the mediocrity scale.  

As far as the course with the 8s and 2s, a portion of the readers would probably greatly benefit from knowing that some of your raters absolutely loved the course.  Likewise, other of your raters might benefit by knowing that others hated it.   That is, if the likes and dislikes were explained.  But to average the numbers renders everyone's rating meaningless, and especially neutralizes those that on the high end (the low enders have kept the course off the list, which is what they wanted.)


Quote
By definition, the latter course is more controversial on some level, probably takes more chances, is probably more inherently different architecturally than the norm, and someone playing there might love it or hate it.  How would you suggest that type of thing gets factored in?
 As I suggest above, fire almost all the raters, and have those that still rate explain themselves.

Raters Outings:  I too think they are a good idea, except that they give the outing locals an unfair advantage over the rest.  As I suggested earlier, have them at well-established courses which are unlikely to be hurt or helped by the rating.  The raters could benefit without skewing the scores in favor of the courses which hold the events.  


Regarding Bandon, I understand that a whole bunch of raters must have liked the course better than you.  You looked very carefully at the course, and you know it isnt the third best modern course in the country, and I'll take your opinion over their opinion.  As you say, the ratings will only be as good as the raters, and here we have a good example of where the raters are perhaps not quite as good as they might be.

Who is to say that you are right and they are wrong?  Let me put it this way, if they are 'right' and you are 'wrong' then there is something wrong with the ratings criteria.   Call me elitist or biased or whatever you want, but there is something wrong with a system which calls Pumkin Ridge Ghost an elite course, and which cannot distinguish the difference in quality between Friar's Head and Bandon Dunes.  (Dont forget, I like Bandon quite a lot, but come on!)
___________________

Tom, how many times are you going to post:  'well, the system isnt going to change?'  How many times are you going to ask me how I would improve the system, only to dismiss the suggested changes as impossible?  How many times are you going to ask me to 'flesh something out' only to later agree with it while dismissing it yet again?  

Give me a break.  I've said what I would do.  If the magazines wont take my advice, that it certainly their perogative.  

As for people preferring BD over FH, you make my point for me.  The ratings dont work.  They dont identify better golf courses over worse.  

DMoriarty

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #85 on: March 09, 2004, 12:29:09 PM »
Mike

I'm disappointed that this thread has so little to say about the golf course and so much to say about abstract concepts/arguments about "rating."  Maybe this anomaly actually answers Tommy's iniital question.  Maybe Tallgrass doesn't get enough respect becuae "raters" are spending too much time looking into their and their fellow raters' navels adn not enough time really thinking about what makes any golf course "respectable."

Let me put it another way.  Would Rodney Dangerfield rank in the top 100 on a list of "Classic" comedians?  If he didn't (which is very possible, depending on how you composed the rating panel and set and weighted the criteria), does that mean that he hasn't gained "respect" or even doesn't deserve "respect?"   I think not, at least from me.

Early on there was quite a lot to say about the course, but how much can you say about a course which most have probably never heard of, let alone played?   You dont need the ratings to bolster your opinions, but unfortunately the insecure industry does, the the ratings are a vital component of 'respect.'

I am not a rater, so I should be automatically disqualified from the raters' circle jerk, shouldn't I?  If you dont like this circle jerk, I am sure you can find one which suits you better.  

THuckaby2

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #86 on: March 09, 2004, 12:36:58 PM »

Tom, how many times are you going to post:  'well, the system isnt going to change?'  How many times are you going to ask me how I would improve the system, only to dismiss the suggested changes as impossible?  How many times are you going to ask me to 'flesh something out' only to later agree with it while dismissing it yet again?  

Give me a break.  I've said what I would do.  If the magazines wont take my advice, that it certainly their perogative.  

As for people preferring BD over FH, you make my point for me.  The ratings dont work.  They dont identify better golf courses over worse.  

David:

1. I've posted this repeatedly because I wasn't sure of your answer, that is, your suggested improvements.  So from the above, I gather that the answer is scrap all the ratings and start over with these few super-raters who justify their answers?  That's cool.  But for the sake of argument, and the good of golf, let's say this isn't going to happen (a very rational assumption, wouldn't you say?).  In that case, isn't it worthwhile to look for more practical improvements?  And I keep asking for such because I'd love to hear some from you, because I do value your opinions very much and would love some further creative thinking.  If this is as far as you want to take this, than that's cool also and we can leave it for dead, which will likely please a lot of people!  ;)

2. If people prefer BD to FH, who's to say they are absolutely wrong?  Why are opinions such as these subject to absolutes?  The people who said this are very respectable and knowledgeable.  Their opinions are necessarily wrong?  Those who prefer FH to BD are necessarily right?  While from everything I hear it would also appear clear to me that FH is the superior course, well... I'm never going to have the arrogance to suggest that my opinion is absolutely right against that of someone else.  I just can't understand this.  And I read what you wrote to Mike... how do you KNOW that any of this is necessarily right or wrong?

See, I can someone calling BD the 3rd best modern course in the country, also... even if I don't agree, I don't think it's absolutely, certainly WRONG to say it....

Help me out here.  What am I missing?

TH


ForkaB

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #87 on: March 09, 2004, 12:41:07 PM »
Hi Dave

I re-read all of this thread before I made my offending post and, sorry, but IMO there really wasn't much important said about the course after Tommy's iniital post.

Continue to participate in the circle if you wish.  It is your right.  I shall excuse myself, for now.

Rich

PS--thanks for that other recent thread that unwittingly proved that all golf holes are "strategic!" ;)

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #88 on: March 09, 2004, 12:42:18 PM »
David,
Rich brings up the obvious observation that this discussion has degenerated into a discussion of ratings/raters, and you tell him to find another thread? Threads that actually discuss golf courses, and not their ratings are becoming an endangered species on this board, and I suspect a number of people who posted on this thread were relieved to find the board settling back into its normal activities....until you hijacked it with ratings discussion.

I think the more sensible course of action would be for you to find a rater circle jerk on which to post your thoughts, and not occupy a thread for that purpose and tell others to get out.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2004, 12:43:28 PM by SPDB »

THuckaby2

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #89 on: March 09, 2004, 12:48:08 PM »
Sean - your post there hit me hard.  My apologies for my participation in this.

David - I remain interested in your answers, as I am very sincere in what I say above.  But maybe we should do this by IM?  While I do understand that "respect" does tend to mean ratings, well... this thread is supposed to be about Tallgrass and we have moved way beyond that.

TH


Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #90 on: March 09, 2004, 07:38:00 PM »
Can raters be objective and impartial when discussing the rating process ?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2004, 09:45:04 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

THuckaby2

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #91 on: March 09, 2004, 08:35:35 PM »
Patrick - modification - I did have something on here but please do check your IM now.  I really do think this has gone on long enough on here, but I would like to answer your question.

TH
« Last Edit: March 09, 2004, 08:45:56 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Jeff Fortson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #92 on: March 09, 2004, 09:23:07 PM »
I am as guilty as anyone here for being a part of the "rater" debates going on in here lately.  However, the thread I debated on was about the Golfweek ratings system.  This thread is about why Tallgrass gets no respect.  I think it's funny that many "raters" in here think respect has to do with being on some silly list in their magazine.  I think the question Tommy was posting was why don't more people talk about it here, not why isn't it a Top 100 Modern.

Let's talk about the golf course.

#1  A rather scorable opening par-5.  No real trouble off the tee unless you blast it way right in the fescue.  Green is protected by a deep bunker dead center in front of the green.  It's reachable in two with a long iron for big hitters.  Birdie is very attainable.

#2  Fantastic strategy off the tee.  Fairway bunker right.  If you hit it in the bunker or short of it you have a blind approach.  The further left you hit the drive the more the angle of the green becomes difficult to approach.  The aggresive play would be to hit a drive as close to the fairway bunker as possible to set up the optimal approach.  Green drops off left, right and behind and the green itself has a slope in the middle that appears to make it a small two tiered green.  Par is a good score here.

There.....  I started it now someone else pick up where I left off and let's talk about Tallgrass.


Jeff F.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2004, 10:42:15 PM by Jeff_Fortson »
#nowhitebelt

JakaB

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #93 on: March 09, 2004, 09:34:16 PM »
Jeff,

Tommy said "nothing short of a miracle" if this is on a 5.5..what kind of hyperbole does he give 8, 9's and 10's...If Tommy is going to be a rater and openly try to influence other raters...he should keep his head about him.   If he does not think a course should be on the list why not be as clear as he is when not talking about friends or business partners.

I will never have a problem with raters and their comps if they take the responsibilities that come with the opportunity.  And that goes with Don't be a whore if you ain't given the score.  
« Last Edit: March 09, 2004, 09:34:34 PM by JakaB »

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #94 on: March 09, 2004, 09:51:02 PM »
JakassaB,
It amazes me that I can see how smart I am to see how dumb you are.

johnnyjumpstart

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #95 on: March 09, 2004, 10:40:13 PM »
I work about 20 minutes from tallgrass & have played it at least 25 times. The course is sporty & often plays differently because the treeless plot is subject to becoming very windy. I enjoy playing the course but it's simply too short to ever be a great course. You can play many of the par 4's without a driver, which isnt necessarily a bad thing, but it just can never be a true championship caliber course. There are about 6 terrific holes (2,4,5,8,10,11,17) and the open nature of the layout promotes a pretty fast round which is a wonderful thing. The green fee is pretty stiff IMO ($65) before 2pm & I've heard the course will soon go private. I actually enjoy Great Rock in Wading River a bit more, john

DMoriarty

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #96 on: March 10, 2004, 02:30:16 AM »
Hi Rich,

Long time no banter.  Glad you enjoyed the other thread.   Your contributions would have made it much much better, I am sure.   I thought the early conversation on this thread was somewhat informative, if a little off topic.  I've an idea.  Instead of hurling insults, why dont you lead us in an important discussion of why Tallgrass doesnt get more respect?
__________________________

 
David,
Rich brings up the obvious observation that this discussion has degenerated into a discussion of ratings/raters, and you tell him to find another thread? Threads that actually discuss golf courses, and not their ratings are becoming an endangered species on this board, and I suspect a number of people who posted on this thread were relieved to find the board settling back into its normal activities....until you hijacked it with ratings discussion.

I think the more sensible course of action would be for you to find a rater circle jerk on which to post your thoughts, and not occupy a thread for that purpose and tell others to get out.

SPBD

I cant imagine that Tommy is disappointed in the flow of his thread.  He asked why the course didnt get more respect, and I offered a possible answer.  Others disagreed and we proceded to have a civil discussion about my answer.  That is until Rich interrupted by hurling insults.  

If Rich really wanted to talk about the question posed, he could have and should have done so.  Instead he decided to muddle our discussion; a discussion which a few others and I thought was worth having.

That being said . . . by all means lets talk about why Tallgrass doesnt get the respect that Tommy thinks it deserves, excluding my theory of course.   Perhaps you and Rich can get us on that track?  Or should I say on a track which you and Rich deem more to your liking?  
_____________

Come on Huckaby, are you man or mouse?  You know that our discussion was and is about why courses like Tallgrass don't get the respect they deserve.  Come out from under the table and face the scorn.  It only hurts for a minute.
__________________________

Patrick.  I think it depends on the rater.  Many have proven they cant, but Mike can, I think, now that the sting has worn off.  
________________________

Mr.  Umpstart:  How long must a course be before it can be considered a great-- excuse me-- a respected course?   Is it not possible to have a "championship caliber course" with a few par 4s that one can play with irons?  
« Last Edit: March 10, 2004, 02:32:59 AM by DMoriarty »

ForkaB

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #97 on: March 10, 2004, 04:51:05 AM »
Sorry, Dave, but I don't really have a clue about the question posed by Tommy since nobody (with a few, shortly fizzled out suggestions) has really tried to explain the relative qualities of Tallgrass.  Possibly it's becuase so few people have played it, and some of those are people who haven't played comparable courses (e.g. Rustic Canyon, I assume).

I'm laearning much more on Barney's "65 Courses" thread, because it is forcing us to actually think about golf courses and their compositions in both the absolute and relative sense.  If you have to, for example, make a choice as to which #4 is "better" between NGLA and Sypglass, you really have to think about what it is that makes up the quality of a golf hole and how much each of those holes is (or isn't) great.

Can somebody out there (Tommy?) who has played both Tallgrass and some other comparable course do a "Match Play" and tell us how they score the match, and most importantly why, on a hole by hole basis?  This might be a learning experience, at least for me.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #98 on: March 10, 2004, 04:56:50 AM »
DMoriarty,

I think the answer to Tommy's question can only be realistically addressed by those who have actually played the golf course, especially those who have played it often.

Unfortunately, I have to disqualify myself, as I have no frame of reference.  Hopefully, I'll get out there in the late spring or early summer.

I'd be interested to hear more from Mike Sweeney and others who are familiar with the golf course.

Johnnyjumpstart,

Would you classify the golf course as "sporty"

I don't classify Maidstone or NGLA as "Championship" in the PGA Tour Pro category, but nonetheless, challenging courses for the Amateur Golfer.  Does Tall Grass fit that description ?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2004, 05:00:32 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Why Does Gil Hanse's Tallgrass Golf Club Get No Respect?
« Reply #99 on: March 10, 2004, 05:22:57 AM »
Rich,

I have not played Rustic, so I will do a hole by hole of Tall Grass (Hanse, the public National Golf Links) vs LI National (RT Jones III, the public Shinnecock, actually it is closer to Atlantic)

Hole #1 TG a short 5, LIN a 400ish 4, LIN goes 1 up. It has some awkwardness off the tee, but a nice second shot into an open green that can be bounced in. A prinicpalish nose placed bunker before the green. TG simple par 5 reacable in 2, nice green.

#2 Both are longer par 4's uphill sort of blind shots. TG wins with a nice green complex where balls run off the shaved surface if you don't hit a good one. Even.

#3 Shorter 4's 3 wood off the tee. Both require precise shots into the greens. Even

#4 TG great redanish par 3, LIN very awkward par 5 with 230ish iron layup off the tee, could be better if he gave you a real chance to hit over the chasm to the fairway, but it does not work. TG +1

# 5 TG medium 4 Have to lay up to stay short of chasm, great shot into great uphill green. LIN overshaped par 4 TG +2

# 6 There will certainly be debate on this one. LIN - 175ish downhill reverse redanish, 2 level putting surface. TG very short 4 that you really can't go for, so 6 iron off the tee. LIN wins, TG +1

#7 LIN short 4 iron off tee, thread some trees not crazy about the green. TG mediun 4 not much going on, weaker holes at both, call it even TG +1

#8 TG medium Par 3 visually intimidating, crowned green good hole. LIN okay mediun Par 4, TG +2

#9 TG par 5 with directional bunker in fairway which narrows as you get closer to the green. LIN Par 3 160ish okay hole, TG gets a slight edge to go +3
« Last Edit: March 10, 2004, 05:24:31 AM by Mike_Sweeney »

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