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David Kelly

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Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« on: March 10, 2004, 03:52:47 AM »
Here are a few pictures of some of the flood damaged areas of Rustic Canyon that were taken this Sunday.

Photo of the 7th fairway taken from the 6th tee box.  The fairway will definitely not be playable by the date of the KPIII.


Looking back down the 10th fairway.  Those bushes on the left used to mark the hazard line.


What remains of the back tee on hole 14.


However the course is in pretty good shape considering it has been ravaged by fire and now a flood within a span of only 5 months.  Here is the approach to the 5th green.


A look at the 11th green.


"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2004, 04:52:21 AM »
David Kelly,

What can be done to prevent a reoccurence ?

What prevented avoidance measures from being implemented in the first place ?  Was it environmental, the result of the loss of vegatation due to the fire, or other factors ?

Andy_Lipschultz

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2004, 10:35:03 AM »
After the fires (or maybe it was after the first winter rain), the L.A. Times ran an article detailing how/why mudslides occur after fires. As I recall from the article, when a tree/shrub root system dies, it emits a gas which stays below the surface but creates a layer/buffer between the top soil and the ground below, which in the event of rain makes it much easier for the top soil to slide away. Akin to a heavy snowfall on top of a mountain slope that is hard pack or ice; it makes ideal avalanche conditions.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2004, 12:55:50 PM »
Patrick,

Unfortunately there is not that much the course can do to prevent a recurrance.   The problem was that the flood waters started well to the north of the course and ran downhill right through the middle of a protected environmental area that bisects the course.  Immediately to the north of the course is Happy Camp which is a large camping and hiking area owned by the county and north of that are some foothills where the I believe the flood waters originated.  Since Rustic Canyon leases the land that it is on from the county I don't think they have the ability to do much construction or landscaping to possibly prevent another flooding.  

Hopefully they have been able to identify some areas on the course where  sandbagging might help and will be ready next time.  Also by next winter there should be sufficient growth in the vegatation to forestall something similar from happening. Fortunately 5" of rain in one night is not something that occurs with regularity.  Once we get through the month of March there will likely be little or no rain of any significance in that area until probably October or November.



"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2004, 01:02:54 PM »
DavidKelly,

Is it possible that the County can implement remediation measures further north and toward the foothills where runoff water can be diverted before it becomes a threat to the golf course ?

Any state that wants 14 year olds to have the vote can surely be creative enough to divert rain water.
Who came up with that idea, the same person that wants to give illegal aliens the right to vote ?

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2004, 02:54:57 PM »
DavidKelly,
Any state that wants 14 year olds to have the vote can surely be creative enough to divert rain water.
Who came up with that idea, the same person that wants to give illegal aliens the right to vote ?

Since the state of California obviously has no problems of any kind our Legislature is free to pursue their flights of fancy.

If 14-year olds were to get a 1/4 vote why shouldn't infants vote and have it count as 1/50th?  That way the politicians wouldn't overlook the problems of babies in today's society.

"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

THuckaby2

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2004, 03:02:33 PM »
Staying miles away from the politics...

David - thanks for posting!  Jeez 7 looks abused.  Oh well.  And 10 must be a bitch now, huh?

None of this effects our outing in a few weeks, we'll have a blast for sure.  The wat Rustic has been plagued though, I'm just worried now that I'm gonna see locusts and I'm watching carefully my first-born son!

LET MY PEOPLE GO!

 ;D

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2004, 04:06:56 PM »
The way the tee looks eroded on #14 seems like it might be preventable with some plastic bank liner and large boulders placed as a retaining bank ahead of the tee box to it's north.  But 7, with its contributing feeder valley confluence of two run-off valley systems looks rather hopeless to prevent. :'(   the hills look like they are greening up nicely.  
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

David Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2004, 07:48:58 PM »
The way the tee looks eroded on #14 seems like it might be preventable with some plastic bank liner and large boulders placed as a retaining bank ahead of the tee box to it's north.

There is no tee box to the north (the back tee on 14 is the northern most part of the course) and there wasn't really a bank on the right of the tee box until it was made by the flood waters.

I don't think the staff at the course had any idea of how massive the flooding would be.  The wash to the right of the tee box overflowed by thirty feet at least in that area.

There had been minor flooding a some weeks before on the course but the water generally stayed in the channel that it had cut out for itself.  This time the flooding was much much greater.  I think it was a case where everyone sensed that there could be flooding but the magnitude of it took everyone by surprise.
"Whatever in creation exists without my knowledge exists without my consent." - Judge Holden, Blood Meridian.

DMoriarty

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2004, 08:26:21 PM »
Is it possible that the County can implement remediation measures further north and toward the foothills where runoff water can be diverted before it becomes a threat to the golf course ?

Patrick,  

When considering possible remediation or prevention measures, I think we need to keep things in persective, just a little.  RC is located near the mouth of Happy Camp Canyon, where it empties into Simi Valley.  Happy Camp Canyon runs north and then East, between Oak Ridge and Big Mountain.  (For those that have been on the 126 between Ventura and Santa Clarita, Oak Ridge is the long ridge/mountain south of that valley.)  I am not sure how far Happy Camp goes back, but looking at the maps, it must be around 15 miles, back close to where the Santa Susana Mountains reach 2600 ft, compared to Rustic, which is probably goes down to around 650 ft.  Throw in all the side canyons and drainages, and you probably have this one canyon draining between 35-50 square miles of mountains.  But at the golf course, the canyon is probably only 600 ft wide.   So, when it rains five inches (as it did the night of the flood) we have the potential for quite alot of water passing through a pretty narrow opening.  

To make matters worse, the area I am talking about was pretty much burnt black by the fires.  So much of the sandy soil washed down the canyon, along with wood and debris from the fire.   I dont think the water was the problem, so much as the debris that came with it.   Currently, at various places around the golf course there are huge piles of silty sand which have been scraped off the course.   It actually looks like a snow plow has piled up excess brown snow.  Quite incredible, really.  

So what can be done?  I doubt anthing that makes sense.  There is just nowhere to divert the water.   The bottom of the canyon is a flood basin and flood basins sometimes flood.

But this is where we need to keep things in perspective.  

First, it is doubtful that RC will face a similar situation for a  decades, if ever.   Once the growth gets reestablished, it will hold the topsoil and even much of the water.   These fires seem to occur when the vegitation is overgrown, and that will take quite a few years.    Flood prevention measures would probably not be economical considering the relatively low cost of the damage and the low probability of future problems.  

Second, while the pictures look bad (especially 7), the course came through with relatively minor damage, considering.  No green was hurt, one fairway was covered with sand, and half of a very small tee box washed away.  The course lost less than a week of revenue, I think.  The other sand, such as the sand on the 10th, is more superficial than anything else.  The fairways are wide enough at Rustic that one can try to avoid a little sand.  

That being said.  I dont understand why the developer insisted on putting such narrow bridges across the wash.  Narrow holes plug up, sand builds up, then you have a problem.  I dont think it is a coincidence that some of the flooding occurred right above these silly little bridges.  
____________________

A few comments on the photos:  The river bed next to the black tee box on 14 was not there before the storm.  The main channel shifted dramatically throughout the canyon and here we see evidence of such shifts.

The 10th is playing fine, except for a small swath of sand across the fairway and on the right side (where there was already sand.)

I dont think 7 is going to that complicated to fix.  The fairway undulations are still there, just a foot or so higher than they were before.  

_____

One positive, the sand on the sides of some of the fairways makes a really cool transition into the natives.  And is definitely a place to avoid.  So all you guys who think you dont have to think have a little more to think about at RC.  





 
« Last Edit: March 10, 2004, 08:26:46 PM by DMoriarty »

peter_p

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2004, 09:46:56 PM »
David,
I think RJDaley was saying put boulders, or rip rap to the north of the tee to divert water.

The comment about narrow span bridges is exactly right. You cross them at grade to alleviate any backwater building up. The width of the wash should have given some clue to the potential problems.


Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2004, 09:55:17 PM »
Southern California is basically a desert.  See "Chinatown" for great exposition of what water means to the LA basin.  When a lot of water arrives suddenly, major damage can occur quickly.  Another good example is the 3rd hole at Rancho San Marcos, which was completely destroyed not long after the course opened.

DMoriarty

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2004, 10:33:11 PM »
Peter and RJ,

I am neither a civil engineer or in construction, so I really dont know if the measure RJ suggested would have worked or would work in the future.  

To be honest, I thought that RJ might have been kidding by his suggestion.  To my untrained ear, it doesnt sound extreme enough; like suggesting a guard-rail could have stopped a runaway tractor-trailer.  

It is a little hard to imagine now, looking at the nice dry riverbed, but the day before flood there was no riverbed.   The riverbed was nowhere near there.  There were burnt bushes and small trees and cactus and quite a lot of hill more land at the same level as the tee, but no river bed.  

Anyway, I hope they dont do anything to drastic to this tee.  I played it once this week just for fun and it was quite exciting knowing that if I overswung and stepped though, the consequence would be a little worse than a lost ball.    
_____________________

Peter, could you please explain what you mean when you write of crossing them at grade?
______________________

Bill

That green looked pretty good.  I think it may have been gone even before the course officially opened, perhaps making it the least played lost gem.  

Other examples of instant erosion occured in 1938, when parts of Riviera, Lakeside, and Brookside were washed away, and the Pasadena Country Club completely washed away, permanently.   (I imagine others were damaged as well.)

Chinatown is a good movie, even for those who dont care about California's water.  For those interested, they might read 'Cadillac Desert' by Marc Reisner.   The book traces the history of water politics in the West.  But when you are talking about water politics in the West, you are really talking about Southern California.  
__________________________




Patrick_Mucci

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2004, 10:37:37 PM »
Daves,

Where does the water run to once it enters the golf course, where does it exit the golf course, and it there anything you can do to facilitate and expedite the water drainage that will
lessen the impact on the golf course.

DMoriarty,

Murphy's law and mother nature usually conspire to confound our predictions.  My money says this will happen again within the next 1-5 years, and I'm willing to bet a sleeve of golf balls and a snorkeling tube with some fins.  
What size shoe do you wear ?

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2004, 10:57:36 PM »
Well, I will be anxious to see the situation.  But, someone above said the flood waters were 35ft to the north of 14t, and that is a little hard to believe.  If the water found a new course as it appears to have slammed into the northern bank of 14t, then perhaps the water was 4-5ft deep there.  But 35'? ::)

Peter is correct about what I'm saying.  building a sort of deflector winged dam or wier sort of structure with bank liner and large boulders to push the water around the teeing grounds is what I had in mind.  The trouble is, those pesky state and federal boys know that when you do such things, it usually creates more velocity in the flooding water and makes them balk at permitting anything.  I imagine those houses behind the par 3 4th, and at the road as it enters caught hell.  

All and all, I'm thinking that minor tweaking and the rarity of the flood event, as someone noted above, makes it not worth major expenditure on the golf course ownerships part to try and design and permit anything too ambitious.  It really seems to boil down to the question of what to do with 7 fairway.  That isn't such a big deal to worry about really, I don't think.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Thomas_Brown

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2004, 11:25:51 PM »
Wow! Can't wait to see the course!

If the tee box was moved back 15 yards towards 13 green, I think the riverbed is less intrusive at that point.  That tee shot has always played so short anyways.  ::)


peter_p

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2004, 03:22:52 PM »
David M
Crossing at grade is using a walkway/cartpath rather a bridge to cross a dry waterway. Bridges and their supports become partial dams when there is too much water and debris.
I guess you have to factor in usual water flow because you certainly don't want to have the golfers wade through the water as routine.

DMoriarty

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2004, 03:48:13 PM »
Peter,

I think that the problem with this is that there is a small, but steep channel which runs down the wash.  (The white line in the pic.  This is where the water usually runs.  It is not crossable by cart; not crossable by people, either. (The channel is quite large in places now.)

Do they make movable bridges which can be removed in really high water?  
____________________

Patrick,

Ive attached an aerial of the course.  The drainage comes in between the two holes on top, moves to the left near the middle, then back into the middle near the bottom.  It is hard to tell from the photos, but the canyon bottom is no wider than the course in most places.



As for your bet, what does "it" mean?  It will probably rain hard in the next five years, and some sand might get on the edges of the course in the next five years, but I doubt that a fairway will completely bury in the next five years.   I decline the bet though,  my luck is so bad that I dont want to jinx the course.  

If it does flood again, it will be sooner than later, before everything completely grows back.  

SPDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2004, 04:27:53 PM »
I'm willing to bet a sleeve of golf balls and a snorkeling tube with some fins.  
What size shoe do you wear ?

I'll take it on good faith that i'm a secured creditor here (outstanding merion and creek, and something else). Just want to protect myself in the reorg.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2004, 04:53:40 PM »
Interesting, that's the first aerial I've seen of Rustic Canyon.  Looking down on the course, does it seem that golfers putting on #2 green might be in serious danger from 2nd shots on #5 which are misfired to the right?  Do I remember that being an issue discussed in the past?  Has anyone ever been conked?

What a neat routing, very linksy out and back but #9 and #18 both at or near the clubhouse.

Pat Brockwell

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2004, 05:01:09 PM »
If the wash through RC drains 35 square miles and that area gets 1 inch of runoff it totals over 21 BILLION gallons. Squeeze that into a 600 foot wide channel and you have an inland Tsunami showing up without a tee time.  As far as this not happening again soon, good luck.  Seems to me the 50 year flood has a way of happening annually.  I've worked at a couple of courses that have a wee bonny burn that can become much more.  I always thought that the architect was supposed to figure this stuff out. One of the "Environmental Principles of Golf Course Design" is "Not all sites should have a golf course built on them." or words to that affect.  At any rate I'm guessing there is yet another superintendent that isn't sleeping so well right now.

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2004, 05:01:14 PM »
Interesting, that's the first aerial I've seen of Rustic Canyon.  Looking down on the course, does it seem that golfers putting on #2 green might be in serious danger from 2nd shots on #5 which are misfired to the right?  Do I remember that being an issue discussed in the past?  Has anyone ever been conked?

What a neat routing, very linksy out and back but #9 and #18 both at or near the clubhouse.

I think youre backwards- the issue I see moreso is golfers putting on the 5th being in danger of 2 tee shots...youd have to fan one well right to hit the 2nd green, but a 265 yard block from 2 tee puts you right near 5 green *yes, ive been there...

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2004, 08:31:33 PM »
Ryan, that's why I referred to the overhead -- #2 green is really on the extended line from 5th fairway before the dogleg goes hard left.  Seems like a straight ball out of #5 fairway could endanger golfers on #2 green.  But you're right about a hard block off 2nd tee - #5 green is sort of in play.

Maybe they should issue body armor and hard hats in the golf shop!

Whatever, it will be fun to play at KPIII!

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2004, 09:20:19 PM »
I played there today and the course has rebounded quite nicely. Most of the sand deposited in the fairways has been dispersed, probably helped by today's 30-40 mile winds! The 7th fairway has been smoothed and looks like it could be  ready to be seeded soon. All golfers will now get to try the shot from over the wash at about 110 yards. My impression is that it will tempt people to try to cross it more often, once they play from that angle to a few different pins. All that water did help the condition of the turf, the greens are in the best shape I've seen there. That little overflow of sand on 10 really makes the strategy of that hole much better, lets hope they can incorporate it into the design.
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Rustic Canyon Flood Damage Pics
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2004, 09:35:40 PM »
Pat Brockwell,
To clarify, Happy Camp Canyon runs about 8 miles up the canyon, and while it was a hefty amount of rain that came running down on that wet night, it wasn't what I would call normal SoCal rain. And your right, the supreintendent Jeff Hicks was out there late many nights, as during the fire to get the course back up and running.

I have mentioned to Brad Klein that Jeff deserves to be nominated for Golfweek's Supernews Superintendent of the Year because he is the only Superitendent that I know of that has experienced every element, Fire, Wind, Rain and Earth (that is the fourth element isn't it? :)) in one season and yet, still has the course open and running and playing REALLY in good shape with all due exception to the 7th hole.

I would hate to lose Jeff to another course because if he ever did want to leave, he would be greatly missed. He has done such a good job, but deserves much better then the hand dealt by Mother Nature and an owner that has the mental capacity of a walnut.

But the amazing thing is that Rustic Canyon is still up and running and busier then ever. As Jim Wagner, one of the guys who both helped design and build it, said to me yesterday, What would someone want, a concrete drainage channel running through the middle of the place? That would look good!" And if one doesn't visit Rustic Canyon and not understand that statement, then they shouldn't be at Rustic Canyon at all.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2004, 09:36:11 PM by Tommy_Naccarato »

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