[SPDB]

ahughes

Yes, you can tell tommy that. In fact, you should never tell tommy you stand fully corrected by any of his statement. Even if you are fully corrected, always say you are only partially so.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Well, as promised in the first of my posts on this thread, my contribution to what hole that I think could be copied--Talking Stick-North's #2, The Boundry Hole.

It is a subtle genius.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Andy,
"Cape" ranks right up there with "Rub of the Green" as two of the most frequently misused terms in golf.

[Rick Shefchik]

I'm not sure if it quite fits the subject at hand, but it seems to me that many of the courses used on the PGA Tour have very similar 18th holes -- the long par 4 with water all the way down the left or right side and a green that curls out towards the water.

Florida courses seem particularly prone to replicate this hole. #18 at Doral and #18 at the TPC at Sawgrass are more or less the same hole. Then there's #18 at Bay Hill, where the water doesn't begin until the second half of the hole, but from that point to the green, it's the same idea.

Doral #18:


TPC at Sawgrass #18:

[ForkaB]

I think there are at least two:

1.  CB's "Biarritz" which bears no resemblance I can see with the NLE hole at la Phare that some seem to think it was modeled on, and

2.  CB's "Redan" at NGLA, which is clearly the template for all the Redans that have come since (excluding "redanman" of course), but which is a copy of THE Redan only in CB's wildest dreams...........

[ian]

The 12th at Augusta has been repeated many times by many architects. Without the setting, backdrop, bridge and maintenance, its hard to tell without a plan view. The biggest difference is a larger green for practical reasons.

[Andy Hughes]

Yes, you can tell tommy that. In fact, you should never tell tommy you stand fully corrected by any of his statement. Even if you are fully corrected, always say you are only partially so.

TommyN, I have taken it to the committee, and as it turns out I have been at best only partially corrected. Cheers!

Jim, at least the way my friends use it, 'rub of the green' has come to invariably mean bad break for me.

[Cliff Hamm]

I have to think that the most uniquely American hole is the par 3 with a pond of water in front.  think the fourth at Baltusrol, the 16th at Augusta, etc. etc.

[SPDB]

Cliff - That's the hole I was talking about. The RTJ staple (#4 at Baltusrol)

But as Jeff noted, RTJ cribbed it from Thompson's Devil's Cauldron. Knowing the Canadian patriotism, and strong sense of individuality vis-a-vis America, they should redesign the flag and replace the Maple Leaf with a rendering of that hole from Banff.

[SPDB]

Ian - Who would want to copy such an ungainly hole?

[Keith Durrant]

What was the first pond or lake forced-carry hole? Baltusrol as mentioned above?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I have never seen the two holes in person, but Balsturol's RTJ Aced, Par 3 hole over the water (Is that the 4th?) and the old RTJ Medinah 17th B.R. (Before Rees) has always struck me as being very similar golf holes.

Could anyone confirm this?

[Marc Haring]

Ian.

Having worked at Stoke Park, UK (formerly Stoke Poges) for many years, one of the main marketing strategies there was to promote that #12 at ANGC was a copy of their #7.

[Cliff Hamm]

The fourth at Baltusrol was originally designed by Tillinghast with a pond but the green did not front the pond.  In preperation for the 1954 open RTJ redesigned the 4th and placed the green right beyond the water with a stone wall.  I do believe that the stone wall was perhaps the piece of this hole that is most copied in a sense, whether it be stone, rock or wood.  Anyway, there's the famous story that the members considered the re-designed 4th to be too difficult.  Jones went down to the 4th tee with amall group of them, teed it up and lo and behold aced it!  Turned to the members and said something to the effect that there was obviously nothing to the hole.  Again, I suspect there were par 3's before 1954 with water up to the edge of the green, but i don't know if there were any with walls.

Cliff

[Mike_Cirba]

Cliff;

That's not really correct.

Tillinghast's 4th hole was in fact over the pond, with the water right up to the green's edge.  RTJ Sr. did two specific things there;

1) Created a new tee that extended the hole from a pitch to a mid-iron.
2) Created "gull wings" on the green to permit new pin positions left and right.  He also filled in Tillie bunkers to achieve this.

Tillie's original tee still exists, and it's a horseshoe shaped affair around the pond.  It now serves as a drop area for balls finding the pond on the tee shot.  

Rick Wolffe covered this pretty extensively at the get-together last weekend.  

[Cliff Hamm]

I am sure you are correct.  Memory is never completely accurate.  Anyway, I do believe that the stonewall was added in '54 and also a tee was added in 1980 back and right extended the hole even further.

[Doug Wright]

Replica par 4= Runway tee, runway fairway to large green, courtesy of Robert Trent Jones. Think Firestone CC South.  

Best,

[Bill Gayne]

I would characterize the design as "Mundane Strategic". Those of you who know my summation of "strategic" will realize that I take the position that all holes are strategic, even in the absence of overt strategic qualities. I feel that shots — not holes — must be categorized as penal, heroic, lay-up, detour or open. These are the five logical categories that can yield one of 280 variations in holes when the exponential product is calculated.


Forrest,

With five logical categories resulting in 280 holes, I'm guessing there is probably 50 plus variations. So I understand better how the number 280 was derived, what constitutes a variation and what are the more common variations?

Thanks,
Bill

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()