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sonofalawyer

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #25 on: March 04, 2004, 07:37:01 PM »
thanks for the report, joe.

i'm curious to hear what the people on this board make of the options presented by number 7 at rustic -- that is, the options when it is playing as a 4 par and not a 3.

when i play the hole from the blue tees, i have a choice between a 3w to carry the hazard or a 6 iron lay up.  generally, i hit 6 iron and leave myself about 130 yards across the hazard to the green.

while there are some advantages to driving over the hazard (the shot isn't blind, better angle at most pins), i find that they don't outweigh the risks involved with trying carry the hazard (it's a rather narrow landing area -- i've driven through the fairway before, and you're left with an in-between pitch (70, 80 yards) to the green).

most of the time the prudent play for me is the 6 iron.  

is it a flawed par 4 when a middle iron is the smart play off the tee?


Thomas_Brown

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #26 on: March 04, 2004, 07:48:58 PM »
DMoriarty - Can we discount the $125 down a $75 flood rate?
(Kidding - I'll pay when PayPal comes online).

Tom

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2004, 09:47:50 PM »
Thanks for the report, Joe.  It will be interesting to see what's in store for us at the end of the month.

And JakaB, you have me so turned around I don't know what I'm saying, let alone you.  No hassles, happens all the time.

TH

ed_getka

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #28 on: March 04, 2004, 10:36:31 PM »
#7 will be just fine, if not better as a par 3 for KPIII. The drive over the wash didn't quite come out quite as Gil et al planned, since few ever do anything but lay up. The angle for carrying the wash just seems awkward, like hitting driver to a shallow green, where you worry about going through.
   #7 will seem like a par 4 to most, since the green gets more than its share of 3 putts. ;)
"Perimeter-weighted fairways", The best euphemism for containment mounding I've ever heard.

DMoriarty

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2004, 12:33:49 AM »
I played today as well  . . . when I saw the signs of how much water was running down the canyon, I was little surprised that much of the course is still there at all.   I think JoeP has it about right with damage;  no greens and tees were damaged, some surface sand/silt on some fairways, and the left/first fairway on 7 is sleeping with the fishes (actually buried is more like it.)

The drainage which runs lengthwise down the middle of the course has reshaped itself, but fortunately pretty much kept within its old secondary borders.  What used to be a 2' x 2' main trench snaked around quite a bit, and now appears to be 15' x 15,' in a few places, completely gone in others.   Almost all evidence of the fire within the course has been washed into the Pacific and/or buried.  

It rained 5+ inches the night of the flooding and the water had no place to go but down canyon (just like the putts), and the canyon goes up many miles.  With the recent fires, sand and debris came with the water, the bridges and narrow spots plugged, sand settled out, and so it continued.  I think there must have been a river, over 150-200 yards wide in places, running down the canyon. The wash  looks different than it did before.      

Obviously the bridges in the wash and some of the walkways across the wash did not fare well, but the cross-paths have already been repaired and the bridges repaired/replaced.  

One correction from JoeP's post.  I am pretty sure the hillside on 7 did not collapse.  There are a few scars from old slides, but no new scars that I saw, and I looked for this specifically.  Believe it or not, the foot plus of sand was deposited by the river as it ran through.  There is a side canyon which drains in right there, and a couple of bridges to get plugged up, so that is a place where the water could get quite wide.  

They've already worked the ground on the 7th fairway, and will probably reseed in the next week, after they pick the rocks and rake the sand.

The sand coverage on the other fairways is relatively minor.  Dragging, scraping, blowing, shoveling should take care of it.

Most of the bunkers are fine and dry, although a few on the less sandy side do have some standing water.

Back tees on 18 were closed today, most likely for safety of the workers.  It looked like they may have been doing some work on the dirt path across the fairway.

Overall, the course plays fine,  with the exception of the drive on seven, of course.  The greens are in terrific condition and were running fairly well.  And a few wear spots in the fairways seem to be recoving well with the break in play.  No carts on the grass for a while which is always a good thing.

In the long term, I think this will be good for the course, but no time for that now.  
_______________

JakaB.  Anyone who thinks 7 needs ten more yards is either very confident in their own abilities, or they mistook the blue tee for the black.  What good would a risk-reward option be if only a few could rationally take the risk?  

________________

JoeP, I almost always play left on 7, but I am not good enough to trust my ability to make the carry.  And I do so knowing that I have virtually eliminated the possibilty of making a birdie, though.   Moreover,  given the half blind shot and green contouring from the left, I think even good players greatly diminish their chance of a birdie from the left.   The approach is much easier from the right, except with a couple of pin placements. This is of course nothing anyone could figure, without multiple plays down both sides.




THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #30 on: March 05, 2004, 09:28:34 AM »
David:

Many thanks for the detailed report.  Not that I had any doubt the course will be wonderful for us when we play it in a few weeks, but well... this is still all great to hear.

Great stuff re 7, btw.  The Catholic in me says that if I'm gonna make a carry at all (ie go right at all), I ought to be rewarded at least a little... so I'm happy to hear it does work out that way, that the shot from the right is easier.  That's how I played it when I went through, and it seemed correct, but I certainly wasn't sure and I left there wondering if there was any reward for the risk... good to hear there is such, and this is confirmed in multiple plays.  Damn that's a great golf hole.

I'm sure this hole does work just fine as a par three - as I recall Ed's right, the green alone is so fantastic it can stand up just because of that.

But now it just means I'll need to get back there again soon after March... because I want to tackle that tee shot choice again!  And more importantly, see some long hitters and what they do there... it's got to be more maddening for them, as they have the option we don't, not sanely anyway - straight at the green....

TH

« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 12:52:27 PM by Tom Huckaby »

rjsimper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #31 on: March 05, 2004, 01:46:35 PM »
For what it's worth, I think 7 is great as it is.  Granted, I've played it once, but the carry across the wash works.  It would require some serious huevos to go at the green, but the 50 yard wedge shot I had to a green facing me certainly has an appeal that a 140 yard 9 iron over a wash to a green that runs crooked and away lacks.

I'll see how it fares as a par 3 tomorrow...1:10 tee time!

sonofalawyer

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #32 on: March 05, 2004, 04:00:26 PM »
ryan et al,

i'm curious whether most people carry the wash or lay up on this hole?  if you do carry the wash, what club do you use?  i find that i generally hit through the landing area with a wood.

and i feel kind of funny standing on the tee of a par 4 with a six iron in my hand.

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #33 on: March 05, 2004, 04:13:26 PM »
son:

I'm not all that familiar with the golf hole, having only seen it twice... but it would appear to me that if your issue is going through the landing area on the right, you must hit the ball a really long way, or you're playing tees too far up to make the hole work for you, or perhaps you can just aim farther LEFT over the wash...

Greenskeeper.org has GREAT stuff about Rustic - check it out.  In the hole diagram they post, it says from the back tee it's 251 to the end of fairway before the wash (ie staying left), straight at the green.  Man that is one big 6 iron you hit if you use that to stay short of 251...

The various carry yardages and yardages to the far end of the right fairway aren't listed, but it seems to me it has to be at least 280 to the bunkers on the far side of the right fairway also...  Then if one goes farther left, it's 300+ before it runs out...

Again, not to doubt you - you must hit the ball a ton -but when I see these distances, I have a hard time imagining going through the other side of the right fairway as a real issue for too many golfers.  And the way the angle is, if that happens for you, there's always room to keep aiming farther left, or you can take less club and stay to the right.  There's a pretty huge area to hit into on that right side, when you take into consideration how the fairway angles off starting at the bridge going to the green...

From back tee, I hit 3wood at the far bunker on the right, cleared and stayed in the fairway just fine.

But yes, we need the regulars to check in.  Just looking at the diagram and remembering this from when I played, quite awhile ago, I don't see the problem.

TH
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 04:14:31 PM by Tom Huckaby »

Brian_Gracely

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #34 on: March 05, 2004, 04:23:16 PM »
Never played RC, but just looking at Scott's AOTD...

Instead of playing #7 as a Par3, could we play it as a Par4 with a forced carry from the 6th tee?  I didn't see anything about that being washed out.  Or even a 3.5 (scorecards modified, of course).  A 280yd Par3....I'm sure Shivas will back me on that  :D

It would be a little slow to walk up and back on #6, but it looks like a challenging tee-shot.  

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2004, 04:29:44 PM »
Sounds like fun, Brian.

Only remember this is a public course and we will be far from the only ones there.  I doubt we'll get to pick and choose tee sites, and we will need to play swiftly!

Also remember we shall be playing match play.  Par is meaningless.   ;D

TH

sonofalawyer

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2004, 04:52:43 PM »
tom,

you're right that greenskeeper has great stuff on rustic. i'm sonofalawyer over there too. :)

i generally play the blue tees at rustic, not the tips (could be part of my troubles, right there ;)).  often they have that blue tee up (perhaps because that back tee creates more of a shooting gallery for balls slicing right of the 6th green).

i'm a fairly long hitter, but not crazy long.  at most courses, i hit 6 iron about 175, maybe 180.  i find the ball just goes a ton at rustic.  i've hit nuclear 250 yard 3 irons at rustic. something about the hard/fast conditions, the shape of landing areas, i don't know what exactly, but i find that i get an extra 10 - 15 yards or so on most every club.  

the yardages on greenskeeper don't represent how the hole generally plays.   perhaps because the tee box is slightly elevated and the markers are generally forward, it plays much shorter.   from the usual blue tee location, i find that a 6 iron leaves me about 130 out, while a shot of 210 yards is in the hazard.

my 3 wood just lands on that far fairway and makes a break for the bunker and tall grass by the 8th tee (it may look like large area on greenskeeper but it doesn't play that way) -- that is when it's not blocked right of everything.  it might have something to do with my ball flight.  i hit a low ball that just seems to run forever at rustic.  i don't carry a 5 wood, but maybe that's what i need.

it's too bad the gcaers won't get to play the hole from its usual tees.  

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2004, 04:58:56 PM »
Son:

That all makes great sense to me.  From my recollection playing the hole, going through the right fairway wasn't even an issue, that's all - but that's likely because I played the farthest back block that was open (I think it was the front part of where the black tee goes) and I DON'T hit the ball all that far, with pretty much the opposite ball flight from you - high cuts as normal shot.  Then seeing the distances on that greenskeeper.org sketch, well... hopefully you can understand my confusion.

In any case, we do have as regular posters here several guys who play Rustic all the time... getka, Moriarty, DavidKelly, some others I think... hopefully they will weigh in.

BTW, what about going longer and left?  That is, staying way left, where the fairway runs out that way?  Seems like a viable option and may even give a good angle in from there.. you could surely hit more than 6iron that way, correct?  The question then becomes is it worth the small amount of added risk...

Oh well.  Yeah it is too bad we won't get to play 7 as it's supposed to be.  But such is life and thankfully most of us have already played the course.  We also will be sure to take a further look at it anyway, even if we don't play from the normal tee.

TH
« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 04:59:40 PM by Tom Huckaby »

sonofalawyer

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2004, 05:07:01 PM »
you know, tom, what i'd really like to do is take a bucket of balls out to 7 tee and try a whole bunch of different shots, but i don't think the group behind me would care too much for that.
 ;D

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2004, 05:11:34 PM »
shivas:

I believe there is a bit more to it than that.  I can't reach the green, nor can I carry the ball 260, but I would typically try to get it over to the right anyway, because the angle in from there is a lot better - you go straight up the green, with it being receptive to the short pitch.  Remember these greens are pretty damn firm - that matters.  Staying left, you have a LOT longer shot, and the green slopes away to a large extent.  I don't think it's so simple to say it's a wedge from either side... that green is a bitch and you are rewarded coming in from the right.... it may be a wedge FOR YOU from either side, but you hit wedges 160+.  Think about how it is for the average length player... there's a big difference between 130 to a green sloping away and 80 to a green receiving the shot, especially on firm greens.

Note also that from what I can recall, from playing it and discussions with the regulars, there are also different parts of the left fairway that yield different results... I'm thinking going longer out to the left is better than straight at the green as well...  

Then add to this that the shot to the right ain't easy, so the decision becomes is the better angle in worth it... and I think it is... but I can see where others wouldn't.

I think there's a lot going on on this golf hole.

And I don't think I'm a dope!

TH

« Last Edit: March 05, 2004, 05:15:05 PM by Tom Huckaby »

THuckaby2

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2004, 05:12:26 PM »
you know, tom, what i'd really like to do is take a bucket of balls out to 7 tee and try a whole bunch of different shots, but i don't think the group behind me would care too much for that.
 ;D

You and me both, bruthah.

But these regulars have done that, in so many words.... some have played it 100+ times...

TH

sonofalawyer

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2004, 05:23:45 PM »
shivas,

i've never tried to drive the green.  to my eye, it never seemed like an option.  this is why i'd like to take a bucket of balls out there.  my sense was that most people who try to carry the wash, do so without going for the green.  they hit their 230 club right and leave themselves a 60 yard pitch in.  you're saying this is a dope play? ;)

i guess i'm curious about two things.  1) what do people on this board make of this hole (mainly the length of shots required -- the green, i think, is fantastic)?  2) how do people play it?  i feel a bit odd playing 6 iron, wedge into a par 4.

DMoriarty

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #42 on: March 05, 2004, 05:36:52 PM »
I'm sorry, but I just don't get the gravity and perplexing nature of the decision on this hole.  Where's this big mysterious choice?  

If you carry your driver over 260, you're a fool not to try to draw a driver off those bunkers right, and if you can't carry it 260, you're a dope to do anything but lay up off the tee because it's only a fricking wedge in.  If the hole was not driveable (ie, maybe 375 or so), only a dope would ever try to clear the wash.  What's so complicated about this one that I'm missing?

Nothing complicated at all Dave, for a guy with a game like yours.  

But of course many mortal golfers find the partially blind, slightly uphill tee shot to a small, narrow, angled fairway beginning around 240 yds off the tee to be not such a sure thing.  Especially when missing this small, narrow, angles fairway can make bogey or double a good score on a 330 yd hole.  

Still others find a wedge or 9 iron into the thin angle of a severely undulating green to be a bit uncomfortable, especially if they were expecting a good chance at birdie on the 330 holes.  

But you should probably ignore these fools, for they are real live golfers who have played the course dozens of times.  I am sure your theoretical golfers, with their perfect knowledge of the outcomes before they even hit, are much better judges of the way the hole actually plays than these jokers.  

By the way, the only gca.com guy I can think of who was sure the green was too easily reachable with a driver has since revisited the hole and realized he wasn't playing off the back tee box.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #43 on: March 05, 2004, 05:55:06 PM »
Tom,
Obviously you know what I think of it, but I thiink the best description has just been made here, "what i'd really like to do is take a bucket of balls out to 7 tee and try a whole bunch of different shots, but i don't think the group behind me would care too much for that.

After talking to Dave Wigler, what he thought was driving the green was actually froma tee shot that was quite a way up, and that isn't discounting David's abilities one bit. I think he could sit out there all day trying to hit the green with a bucket of balls and not get one of them ON the green, let alone carry it. I have played with some scarry-long players out there, and most everytime I have them drop another and make a go for it. I encourage it.

The advantages of right, over the hazard find the better angle or shot into the green not just because you not having to carry the hazard to the narrow side of the green which on a fast & firm course is a hearty task, you also have a much better advantage of the tricky shaping in the right side of the green. Most shots from the short fairway that have to cross the hazard on the second bring the shaping into play, or simply over-shoot it into the sand or scrub. From there its an even tougher shot to get it close to the pin. because now you have the shaping kicking the ball off into some wild direction dependant on your line to the pin.

Tom, I know you know this, but I'm trying to explain this better to Shivas.  Some will hate the hole, others will love it--that's what usually transpires with really great golf holes full of spirit and character, which the 7th is one of them. If you don't like it, well then your more then likely not going to like Rustic Canyon, and thats O.K. It takes more then one visit to aquire the taste--just like my first bottle of Heitz Cellars where I couldn't understand the hint of pine in my Cabernet. Anyone that thinks they an judge the course in one visit still doesn't understand the study required to play it and the architectural subtleties that exist.

Rustic Canyon to this day is the only affordable, daily fee golf course that I know of that acheives the same charateristics as many of the great courses in the game do--two different games being played at once. The one that gets you to the green and the one that starts once your on it.

Shivas, with your length, if you don't play from the original 7th tee--from the blues, then your a wimp. (jokingly saying this) The one time I have made it over, it was only because of I was aided by the bridge, bouncing off of it and into the prefered fairway.


Cheers

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #44 on: March 05, 2004, 06:20:56 PM »
Shivas -

Its not that easy.  The decision comes down to your short game wizardry, in my opinion, not how far you hit the ball.  From the short side of the wash, you have a 9-iron to a blind green with the landing area for your ball sloping away from you.  The other side of the wash, however, gives you the option to hit a low running chip approach from about 80 yards to a semi-receptive green.  

I can carry that wash 9 times out of 10, but that doesn't mean that I want to.  I personally can't hit the 80 yard chip, so I usually lay back and try to hit 9 iron into the green.  Lynn Shackelford, however, always goes over.  It really comes down to the strenghts and weaknesses of your overall game, not whether you can usually carry it.  

Does that make sense?

sonofalawyer

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #45 on: March 05, 2004, 06:25:47 PM »
dan,

when you lay up, what do you hit?

pj

Dan Grossman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #46 on: March 05, 2004, 06:29:05 PM »
5 or 6 iron.

DMoriarty

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2004, 06:31:29 PM »
So, the only guys who has a real choice arethe guy who hit it 240 in the air maybe between 65% and 80% of the time.  In my view, that's the teeter-totter point where there is a real decision to be made because the carry is no sure thing and not the impossible dream either.  Everybody else is just kidding themselves.      

Those I know who almost always hit it 240 yds in the air (some with their three woods) will be surprised to learn they have no choice but to go for it every time . . .  

Shivas, you see this as the teeter-totter point, because, as usual, all you care about is distance.   A Shivas risk reward analysis:  If you can hit it far enough, then hit it.  But that wont likely get you far enough at Rustic, where the question isnt always: "Could you?"  Rather, it is often "Should you?"

One not only has to carry the ball 240, but also stop it in the fairway, preferably on a flattish spot.  And one has to make this decision knowing that he is passing up an easy iron lay-up which will leave an 9 iron or wedge.  In fact it is possible to make the carry and still be left with a longer approach.    

Oh yeah, as for the players who cant carry it 235-240, they should probably be playing the next tee up, where the carry is closer to 215-220.

Tommy_Naccarato

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2004, 06:37:44 PM »
Dave,
I'm a sub-240 golfer, and there isn't a day I don't thnk about whether I'm going to try to go for it or not. Common sense ususally prevails, and I hit my usual 5 wood or 3 iron out there and have found to be one of the most wide array of shots to attack the green. From +/-110 yards, I have hit everything from a wedge to a 7 iron, with the less lofted clubs benig the better solution to run the ball up the elevated side of the green to the pin of the day.

DMoriarty

Re:Flash flood closes Rustic Canyon
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2004, 06:43:49 PM »
Mr. Falawyer:

I dont trust my driver/3wood to go straight, so I always lay up from the black tees and usually lay up from the blues.   I hit between a 3 and 6 iron depending on the wind and on what side of the first fairway I am trying to hit.  The fairway is much deeper on the left, and I find that certain pins are more accessible from one side of the left fairway or the other. This winter in strong winds I have layed up with 3 woods.


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