Would anybody notice?

[Tony Ristola]

Would anybody notice if Pinehurst No.2 were constructed today?

Would it register on the charts?

[SPDB]

This is a great question. Can't talk now, but wanted to make note of that.

[JakaB]

Tony,

I guess you have not played there and are assuming that it would not be holding the 2005 US Open....Lets see...A championship course that holds the best in the world to almost exclusively over par yet is easy to play for the most average of golfer.  A great walking course...at a great resort...in a great town.   Throw out tradition and think every other golfer in the world is an idiot besides you and your friends....sure nobody would notice.   But the same could be said for the all of Ireland.

[Tony Ristola]

Jaka B,

You've misunderstood the question.

What I am asking is if built today would anybody notice?  No tradition, no Ross, no US Open in the books, no Hogan, Snead and the guys having played there and loved it...just a guy today, with a limited budget plying his trade and coming up with the product.  Let's say it was built next to Tobacco Road...would people rave about No.2?  Or would it be over shadowed by TR?  Would people understand...even the raters...the stuff going on?  Would they even make time to visit or would the go to TR with No.2 not even being on the map?

I've been there twice...spent the day there, walked around and mapped the greens both times.  Enjoyed watching some college players rip around...and the average guys.

[George Pazin]

I would think the reception might be similar to that of Hidden Creek (not that the courses are at all similar - and please don't degenerate into a Hidden Creek battle like we've seen in the past ).

That is to say, true architecture afficianados would probably appreciate the course and others would likely scratch their heads and wonder what's so special.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Tony,
Well, without the "tradition" points....  

I think it would have a better chance of being recognized as extremely good if it was built today rather than twenty years ago.
But, if you were to take away the history, Ross, etc., you're left with a course that would have to "prove" itself over time.
That is a surety, as cream always rises.
 

 

[Ben Cowan-Dewar]

Tony,
Great to see you post and an excellent topic, at that. There is no way it would be received today in the same lofty manor. The course as it plays today is NOT easy for the average player. The green contours are too much for the height they are mowed to. There is none of the interest that I imagine there was years ago, you are inevitably faced with the same shot from the hollows that the ball funnels too.

Secondly, its greatness in large part is due to its green complexes, which are extraordinary. George makes good mention of Hidden Creek and Rustic is another I think that shares similar attributes. Since neither of have garnered the kind of acclaim I believe they deserve, I have to believe the style is being missed.

Surely there will those who disagree with me, and think my comparisons are outlandish. However, those that "learn" Pinehurst over the years may find similar feelings to continued education at Hidden Creek and Rustic.

[John Foley]

Tony,

I think it would depend upon how it was presented. If it's a private, members course then few would notice. Think about the raves we hear about Friar's Head. If you asked the 20 best amatuers & local pros in every state out side the NE, you get 99% blank stares. W/out this web site, almost all of us would never know about it and we're the group that salivates for places like that.

Today we know #2 because of it's history w/ players at the highest level, it's architecture due to it's liniage w/ Ross and because it is part of the largest golfing resort in the country.

It it was presented, as George points out, as a very understated private course, then few would notice. It it was built in Monterey where lets say the Fazio course is planned, many would notice and sing her praises, she would be on the cover of all the mags and the raters would be linning up.

[Mike Hendren]

I have had the good fortune of playing a few rounds at Sand Hills and have never set foot in Pinehurst.   That said, I have little doubt that if Sand Hills can rise to the top of GW's modern list, Pinehurst No.2 could not be far behind.  I suspect it would trail Sand Hills due to the latter's majesty and the closer scrutiny Sand Hills receives from multiple rounds inherent in a trip there.  

Mike

[ForkaB]

Great question, Tony!

I would guess that if #2 were built today AND:

--it was built by a relatively unknown architect (say Brauer, or Moran or even Ristola )
--it was financed by a low key developer (oxymoron?)
--greens fees were in line with the "second tier" courses in the area
--there was no Golf Week raters weekend with free wine, women, ProV1x's and song (just kidding all you thin-skinned guys out there!).....

...then it would barely cause a ripple in the GCA universe.

#2 is a great example for this sort of thought experiment because it is so seemingly ordinary.  No external eye candy a la TOC or Pebble Beach.  Nothing obviously distinctive about the course vis a vis 100s of other courses in the Carolina sand hills.

Wihtout the massive hype such as has been attached to Shadow Creek and Sand Hills and Friars's Head and Pacific Dunes, I'm not sure if it would even make the GCA radar screen.  Maybe a post or two from one of the locals, with 5-10 replies and then Page 2 oblivion.

Of course, if we all really know our onions, maybe 2-3 years down the road a Ristola or whoever, will visit the place and take his or her notes and make a declaration to all of us that this is really a "hidden gem" and then.......it might just sink below the radar screen for another 5-10 years.......

The real question is, is #2 that good, or are we just all smoking the exhaust of our and all our predecessor's hype?

I've only been there once, and I am not sure.

[Brian_Gracely]

I'd like to begin a GCA grassroots movement to begin having the raters, from whatever magazine, to bash Pinehurst #2 and stop recommending it.  Also, maybe TEPaul can start pushing on the USGA to stop coming for US Opens.  Then start a similar campaign that #4, 7 and 8 (Fazio, Jones, Fazio) are far superior.

I would love to see it become "just another Donald Ross course in the Sandhills" and get their rates down to Southern Pines GC levels ($28).  

The rest of you can have your Sand Hills and NGLAs and Pine Valleys.  I'll take that flat course with the push-up greens and boring tee-shots in my backyard.  

I agree....Pinehurst #2 is not that great!!  Did I mention that there are over 100 courses to study just south in Myrtle Beach??

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've thought this same thing myself about #2.

In addition to the reasons stated above, it also doesn't have "the look" (except the few waste areas that are off to the sides) that would catch the eye of some.

This same question could also be asked of Winged Foot.

[Mike Hendren]

If the developers of Pinehurst would hire Mel Gibson, trump the criticism of the course before it opened and have an invitation only event for the select group of raters that are reknowned for their love of minimalism, it would be a smashing success!

MIke

[Walker_Taylor]

I don't know when "they" would notice but when you have the greatest second (approach) shot course on planet earth -even if in the middle of some obscure town in Nebraska -somebody would notice.

There isn't even a close second if you ranked the courses worldwide that required the precise play into and imaginative recoveries required on #2 under normal conditions. This course so far outranks other courses it's about the same as the difference in ability of Tiger vs. #2,3,4 players in the world. Head and shoulders above the rest. Not a tough driving course but the best second shot course in the world, bar none. Is the 2005 Open here yet?

[JakaB]

I went there as a single and walked 36 in one day...are you telling me I had the time of my life because people told me it was good...or because I saw the course on TV.   The Deuce seems to do pretty well with the anti-tradition people...to say it is all smoke and mirrors and only lives through its reputation is in my mind underestimating the common man.   Sometimes we like stuff without having to be told so before hand by a bunch of experts....The Duece fits the bill and would not go unnoticed..

[cary lichtenstein]

No one would notice

[RJ_Daley]

The cream always rises to the top, and so would #2.  If it debutted tomorrow, it would be recognized within a year as being very good and among the best new modern, and within a few years it would be at the top dozen of all lists.  If Wild Horse can make it on its merits with nothing promotional or glitzy or glamor going for it, then Pinehurst #2s quality, with a world class lodge, several other courses, and other ammenities that at first get attention would only help it to be noticed for its great design.  Quality never goes out of style nor goes unnoticed.

[ForkaB]

JakaB

I'm not sure why #2 is "better" than, say, Barona.  Is it because you walk from tee to green on the former through pine needles that Donald Ross might have trod on vs. snake infested grasses that Todd Eckenrode probably avoided like the plague, or just that there really was something significantly "better" about the architecture?  If so, what (and please avoid all the cliches about "crowned greens" and "chipping areas" and Payne Stewart's Open, please.  I know you're above that.......

[T_MacWood]

Not likely. This is what Tom Fazio said about the #2:

"...we don’t fine too many memorable photographic scenes on some of our older, classic designs. Pinehurst #2, for example, is not dramatic in appearance because it was designed to be played rather than photographed. My photographic friends tell me its hard to photograph because it has so few sharp features or contours. There are no creeks or lakes or waterfalls on Pinehurst #2, nor strong elevations....If a course with the quality of Pinehurst #2 were built today, one that had great shot values and design features but little fizzle or flashy eye appeal, would it be well received by golfers and writers and resort owners? The expectations people have today for instant visual impact, the ‘wow’ factor, suggest to me those day are gone."

That quote was taken off of my In My Opinion essay 'Magazine Architecture' which snatched it from Fazio's book. Pinehurst #2's brilliance is dominated by its green designs, all the strategy works back from the greens. The hazards are not plenitful, the fairways are wide, the framing is minimal -- interesting greens, wide fariways and little framing don't photograph well..

Rustic Canyon is a modern example of this phenomenon. Fifty years from now we will still be debating the merits of Rustic Canyon; many of these current glitzy designs will be distant memories.

[JakaB]

Rich,

I think The Deuce does a better job of raising and lowering your heartbeat than Barona...I don't ever remember being nervous at Barona....I have only played each course twice but I think I could understand Barona better after approx 25 plays where I see Pinehurst #2 needing closer to 100....Barona just seems all too obvious and easy to understand...If I could explain why I like The Duece to you I doubt I would like it so much.

[SPDB]

Jaka - I don't think anyone is disputing the quality of #2, only that it might not get noticed, for some of the reasons Tom F. cited, and some of the ones others listed. But something has to get you to PH#2 - you didn't just stumble across it.

Also, look at this quote from Gib on the GW Top 100 Disasters of All Time

It is easy to understand how some panelists would not rank Rustic as highly as others. It has little flash, a few obvious flaws and its salient qualities will go right over the head of any panelist not paying VERY close attention. This is one of those golf courses that you cannot simply tee it up for a breezy round on the way to Bel Air and fully grasp.

Not surprisingly, Tom M. picked up on the same subtlety. I've never been to RC, so I don't know about the comparison, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

But stripped of its architect, provenance and hometown - what would #2 be? the same amazing golf course, but one that only the locals would enjoy. that's probably a tribute to the course, because it doesn't rely on anything glitzy or architectural sleight of hand, just raw architecture.

[JakaB]

To say #2 would not get noticed is to say all rating systems are mired in a muck of tradition and architect worship....So you are saying that if some rich guy one hit wonder like Crump built The Duece it wouldn't get noticed...Is New Jersey all that when compared to the Sand Hills...The only excuse for Pinehurst #2 to not get noticed is to assume most golfers and all rating systems are biased towards flash...This is where I disagree with both MacWood and Fazio...Those two have their heads in the clouds...not the same cloud..but the clouds indeed.

[Mike Hendren]

Let's just go ahead and diminish (that is indeed what many are doing under the guise of "appeal" - save the retort that you're not challenging No. 2's greatness and please make no references to Joe Sixpack) the entire body of work of Donald J. Ross - a man who obviously understood that a golf course exists for one reason - to be played.  

I hope to spend the balance of my days ascertaining whether today's fairhaired boys or the dearly departed could carry Ross' jock-strap on their BEST day.

Yours from the children's table,
Mike

[Andy Hughes]

I do not think a Pinehurst #2 would be as highly regarded if it was built today. How many courses built in the last few years have truly climbed high in the rankings? I can think of Sandhills and the Bandon Dunes courses. Perhaps a few others. But those courses have been blessed with jaw-dropping scenery/locales as well as being good courses. Pinehurst would "just" have its quality as a golf course, shorn of its history, pedigree and US Opens, and it would be ranked back there at number 66 with Aronimink or Huntington Valley

[JakaB]

If all this is true and Golf Digest is the only system that uses points for tradition...how does Pinehurst #2 maintain its lofty status at Golfweek...The next thread should be about Oakmont....Where is the flash in that piece.