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Mike_Cirba

Re:Would anybody notice?
« Reply #75 on: March 08, 2004, 05:58:30 PM »
Ben;

Hidden Creek and Rustic Canyon haven't received accolades??

Out of 10,000 modern courses, they are ranked by Golfweek as, what, 70 & 106 respectively?

RC was listed in Golf in their "Top 10 new you can play".  HC was listed in the Golf Magazine top 100.

That's pretty dramatic for two "low-profile" courses!


Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would anybody notice?
« Reply #76 on: March 08, 2004, 10:29:01 PM »
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Many people play a "renown" top 30-40 course and subconsicously are giving points simply because it is the exalted layout from years gone by. Reputation -- not
actual design -- becomes the starting point for some.
OK, Matt so you are saying that older, highly ranked courses are given status and high ranks currently because they are 'renowned'. You also previously said that too often older courses had brownie points lobbed at them.

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Raters / reviewers should be assessing the pure aspects of the design and leave out the other matters. As a practical matter I know that's unlikely to happen with a good number of them. However, there are people who have no hesitation in giving high marks to new courses. I rate the product not the architect who did it. Some people do it backwards IMHO.
And here, Matt, it appears you are saying that a good number of raters often don't do a good job of rating the course itself.
Taken together, it would appear that you should agree that a new, subtle architectural gem would be not fare as well as you think it should in golf's rankings.  So why then have you insisted that #2 would, if it came out today, be ranked in the top 10 or so in this country?  Everything you have said strongly implies that you agree that the old courses in the top 30 or so slots are often kept there too long (resting on their laurels as it were) and that new courses are too often not judged well on their merits.  You also seem to agree that newer courses essentially have been unable to break into the top third of the Top 100 for many years.  But then, at the end, you insist that #2 would be ranked in the top 10 or so if it came out today!  I don't see how you take all those pieces and come up with that conclusion! ???

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Pinehurst #2 is an exceptional layout -- it would still be whether Donald Ross or Donald Duck did it.
Well, they more be a few more water hazards if Donald Duck did it, but we'll let that go... ;D

"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would anybody notice?
« Reply #77 on: March 08, 2004, 10:31:09 PM »
Ian, I have to know; who is Bobby?
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

ian

Re:Would anybody notice?
« Reply #78 on: March 08, 2004, 10:53:32 PM »
A wonderful caddy.

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would anybody notice?
« Reply #79 on: March 09, 2004, 08:37:29 AM »
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A wonderful caddy.
OK, thanks. I had this feeling it was someone I should recognize, and I didn't, so...
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Matt_Ward

Re:Would anybody notice?
« Reply #80 on: March 09, 2004, 02:35:21 PM »
Andy:

You might be surprised but I often find the ratings process wanting in a number of ways. Many people who step foot on the more "renowned" courses simply get caught up with the fanfare that the club has achieved in non-architectural aspects -- like the hosting of major championships and the like.

I also think that raters need to be ever vigilant and current in their reviews. I've said this before a few times -- courses change and evolve and your need people who are up to date on what the courses are today -- not from yesterday.

I will say this again -- architectural gems can be found -- it simply takes people to get off the couch and go out there and play them when they come forward. The Kingsley Club in MI is a great example of a course that has been dynamic and superb but it took some time for others to "discover" the layout -- ditto Black Mesa in NM. Some people automatically convey "points" to courses for no other reason than they have always been among the top courses -- this is the same mentality that happens with "great" universities and restaurants and the like.

I don't follow that reasoning -- especially in my "neck of the woods" in Northern New Jersey and through the NY metropolitan area. The bar for courses should be high when we speak about the overall best and from my travels and many visits over the last 30 years I have personally witnessed a number of successful courses (e.g. Skokie in IL) that are awaiting others to wake up and smell the coffee regarding their specific pedigree.

There are superb layouts designed by some wonderful architects who are not as prolific or known as the usual set of characters you see discussed here on GCA and elsewhere. Unfortunately, there are a few people who simply play courses because of their "brand name" designer and then convey some added meaning to those layouts when the reality is even the big name architects don't hit home runs with each design.

Andy -- you need to play more courses before you jump in and say my rationale is flawed. Pinehurst #2 has the goods --it doesn't have the flash and off-course aspects that often draw the attention of those who should know better. If you're not convinced of my opinion -- fair enough -- but please do me a favor and play a number of the top courses that are out there now and let me know what you think then.

My personal bag of top courses is a bit more mixed than you might think and I believe they would / should be noticed because of what they consistently provide to golfers today -- not just from 60 or so years ago.


Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Would anybody notice?
« Reply #81 on: March 09, 2004, 04:48:43 PM »
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You might be surprised but I often find the ratings process wanting in a number of ways. Many people who step foot on the more "renowned" courses simply get caught up with the fanfare that the club has achieved in non-architectural aspects -- like the hosting of major championships and the like.
Oh no Matt, actually I am not at all surprised.  You have been quite clear on your feelings towards the rankings, and a large number of the raters as well. We have no quibble here. In fact, I think we agree on almost all the points discussed generally, until we actually get to the point where we take all the points and reach a conclusion based upon all those little factoids. We just seem to end up at a different place.

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I will say this again -- architectural gems can be found -- it simply takes people to get off the couch and go out there and play them when they come forward.
No doubt you are correct, but that's tangential to what we have been discussing.  

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I don't follow that reasoning -- especially in my "neck of the woods" in Northern New Jersey and through the NY metropolitan area. The bar for courses should be high when we speak about the overall best and from my travels and many visits over the last 30 years I have personally witnessed a number of successful courses (e.g. Skokie in IL) that are awaiting others to wake up and smell the coffee regarding their specific pedigree.
Again, this is one of those little factoids we agree on.  You don't agree with my terminology (inertia), but you clearly agree with the point I was trying to make regarding it.

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There are superb layouts designed by some wonderful architects who are not as prolific or known as the usual set of characters you see discussed here on GCA and elsewhere. Unfortunately, there are a few people who simply play courses because of their "brand name" designer and then convey some added meaning to those layouts when the reality is even the big name architects don't hit home runs with each design.
Right, we're on the same page again. So if a #2 was designed today by Donald Duck (all water hazard jokes aside), I am not sure why you think it would be immune from the exact same phenomenon you are talking about here?

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Andy -- you need to play more courses before you jump in and say my rationale is flawed. Pinehurst #2 has the goods --it doesn't have the flash and off-course aspects that often draw the attention of those who should know better. If you're not convinced of my opinion -- fair enough -- but please do me a favor and play a number of the top courses that are out there now and let me know what you think then.
Matt, I would be happy to play more of the top courses, truly I would. I don't seem to get a lot of invites to them however. I am just west of you in D.C., so send me a line next time you need a fourth   :D
I am not doubting the courses you have played or your judgement of them in any way, by the way. I am sure your assessments are spot on generally, and spot on specifically of #2 (which I have played, by the way)
I am trying to follow your logic though (too many older courses clog the top 30 when they shouldn't,  superb new courses do not get the respect they deserve etc), and see how you arrive at a conclusion that a #2 would be a top 10 ranked course if it opened today, and I don't see how you get from all the little facts we agree on to a conclusion that seems to fly in the face of all those facts.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Tony Ristola

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Would anybody notice?
« Reply #82 on: March 10, 2011, 01:10:46 PM »
In light of what has been done to No. 2, I thought I'd bring this old thread back up.

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