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Matt_Ward

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« on: June 22, 2001, 04:04:00 PM »
Had the opportunity to watch the best players in the world tackle Westchester CC today. A marvelous layout that bedevils professionals each year.

Tiger shot 75 in completing his first round today but came back firing with a superb five-under-par 66.

The golf course is blessed with wonderful terrain that slides up and down the majestic hills of Westchester County.

The course also provides a wide array of holes and at just over 6700 yards requires as much as thinking as any course the pros will face on Tour.

The 8th, 11th and 12th have each been among the 50 toughest holes the pros face each year. You also have some of the most devilish greens with shelves and fall-away areas that demand a deft touch with the iron when approaching.

Too bad TV has a tendency to flatten everything. The viewer will probably never really appreciate the quality that is packed inside the course. Westchester's West Course is not considered in the league with other county courses such as Winged Foot / West & East and Quaker Ridge, but it still is so much fun in seeing an old-style layout instead of the assembly line version TPC course that has become the norm for those on tour.

I would clearly recommend and aspiring architect to visit Westchester and see how unique holes can be presented that test the tour professional and average player.


Patrick_Mucci

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2001, 05:07:00 PM »
Matt,

For years Westchester was a pushover for Pro and amateur alike, until they brought in the former Greenskeeper from Winged Foot.

Subsequently, the course became difficult, with little or No change to the basic architecture.

Is this another case of tightening fairways, adding a little length, and growing the rough to punitive heights ??


What caused the dramatic change ??

Could you provide a list of the changes ?


GeoffreyC

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2001, 04:40:00 AM »
Good question Pat. My guess is that the scores have been as much as 2 shots per ROUND higher for the last decade or so.  Before that scores of 20 under or so were posted if I recall correctly. As for it ever being a pushover for amateurs, well then I'd like to hear your definition of an amateur (someone with entirely too much time to play golf rather than work   ?)

I get to play at Westchester CC a few times every year including late in the week immediately before the tournament.  I can tell you that the fairways are not narrowed from regular member play, however, the rough is considerably higher for the tournament (at least the last several years that I have played the course). Joe Alonzi does a great job at Westchester CC and his brother does and equally good job down the road at Fenway (he was at Winged Foot too).  I think what has happened is most likely an excellent example of just how course setup can affect scores.  Rough is only part of the story.  Westchester's greens are very tricky.  They contain small ledges and shelves that are not uniform distinct tiers as contained on many modern greens built to USGA specs.  Place the pins in difficult places and scores will rise.  Similarly, if the course is allowed to get firm, especially the greens and you compound the problem immensely.  Recall the tournament 17th hole (member #8) last year.  It is a short par 4 extended to 374 yards this year (from 350) up hill to a green protected by a deep bunker on the left. Last year when the pin was left, time after time the players would fire right at it with wedges and sand wedges (after irons or at most 3 wood into the fairway) and the ball would bounce high in the air and go over.  There was not a single birdie on that hole in round 4 last year.  A simple 350 yard par 4!  The setup turned numerous birdies into bogie.  Given only 2 or 3 of these sucker holes on a given day and the scores will rise accordingly.  My guess is that the course was setup softer and with easier pin locations when Bob Gilder shot lights out.

Many here (myself included) like firm and fast conditions and the extra thought that this entails but except for Dan King   it will result in higher scores in general. Its funny but the pros did not and generally do not complain about this when playing a classic course like Westchester CC but they do when playing the weekly TPC.  Think they subconsiously recognize and appreciate great architecture?


Patrick_Mucci

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2001, 07:42:00 AM »
Geoffrey C,

By amateur, I meant low handicap, tournament quality amateurs.


Matt_Ward

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2001, 08:37:00 PM »
The terrain at Westchester is also a major factor. You cannot simply "unload" from the tee with abandon. There are specific places where the tee shot must come to rest in order for any player to consider firing at the flag.

Yes, the fairways are narrow about 25-30 yards across but when you have a course that is just over 6700 yards what would you expect? The fairways at Westchester are no more narrow than many other Westchester courses. Yes, the rough can be "juicy" in places but you can play a shot out of it. You will not, however, be able to always get it to the green.

I agree with GeoffreyC that firm and fast conditions would make the course even tougher. How many courses do you know on tour can have someone leading at just -6 for 36 holes when the conditions are soft and the pins are holding???

Westchester is a superb Travis layout and yes a few tees have been lenghthened but not so much so to result in major changes to the course. Great change of pace holes and there are places for bold play (witness Tiger's driving of the 10th hole in hi second round which set his play in fashion for the -5 2nd round.

I'll say it again -- when you have beautiful land combined with a smart routing you get a solid course. If people want to know how to handle modern technology take a stroll over to Westchester. It's a gem ...


WB_Salinetti

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2001, 06:57:00 AM »
I would have to agree with Geoffrey C with his comments on the reason for course becoming more difficult, it is very simple, FIRM greens.  Joe Alonzi and his staff are  the master's of firm, fast greens.  To my knowledge there have been very few alterations to the course with the exception of the work that has been done by Ken Dye in the past year. I saw the renovations this spring and he has done an excellent job of  enhancing the incredible Travis putting surfaces.  Just another one of the great improvements that Joe has made to the golf course in the past ten seasons.  I have played all of the top rated courses in Westchester and WCC should surely be included when speaking of great designs.  WCC is a wonderful and in my opinion under-rated golf course.

Patrick_Mucci

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2001, 07:08:00 AM »
Matt,

I still believe the fairways have been narrowed and the rough allowed to grow.  That was my first impression when Westchester hired the Winged Foot Super.

Having played Westchester last year, I didn't walk away with the feeling that the greens were especially firm.


Bill_Perlee

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2001, 11:00:00 AM »
Pat,
I don't think WCC supt. Joe Alonzi came from Winged Foot, he was at Fenway prior to his current post.  It gets confusing since his brother, nephew and son all work on courses in the area.

John Morrissett

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2001, 01:44:00 PM »
I was able to play WCC once and attended one round of the Tour event a couple of years ago.  The course always came across well on television, but I was still mightily impressed with it in person.

While most of us know the quality of 10-16 (using the Tour routing)  through television, the stretch of 3-8 (Tour routing) was a great surprise.  In fact, I would nominate the 4th as my favorite on the course.

Why doesn't this course receive more attention?  Does it get knocked by being "just another Tour site," since, unlike Fenway GC, it is well known.

I'm curious: Which do people here prefer between WCC (West) and Winged Foot (East)?  I would give the nod to WCC, largely because of the more varied topography.


GeoffreyC

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2001, 02:19:00 PM »
John

"Why doesn't this course receive more attention?" - I'm not sure but as Ian Baker Finch and Curtis Strange kept saying, this is a GREAT area for golf courses.  The MET section has so many great courses it's hard to get excited about any one.

You identifed the 4th (tournament- 419 yards) which is also my favorite 4 par on the course.  It is an amazingly natural hole with its blind drive over the crest of the hill doglegging slightly uphill to the left to one of the most natural greensites you will ever find. The topography is fantastic on that site.


Jmhaley

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2001, 03:02:00 PM »
I believe they have rebuilt the bunkers the archie was finger and dye the contractor was Sullivan...Just my two cents

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2001, 07:55:00 PM »
The Westchester tournament, now the Buick Whatever, has long been one of my favorites to watch because of the course, though the 15th is not what it used to be now that most everyone can cut the dogleg.

Patrick_Mucci

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2001, 04:25:00 AM »
jmhaley,

I don't think the bunkers on the tournament course were touched.  I believe the other course had the bunker work.


Matt_Ward

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2001, 06:46:00 AM »
Pat: The rough is clearly high for the event but I've seen rough at other Westchester courses that is nearly as high (i.e. Winged Foot, Quaker, Metropolis, etc.).

The fairways are sufficiently wide enough (25-30 yards across on the longer holes -- slightly narrower for the shorter holes.

Scott: When you say "most everyone" cuts the off the 15th hole I beg to differ. I watched the event this year and unless wind conditions from the south were blowing he option to cut the corner is more risk than any possible reward. Tiger himself has played driver to the left of the tree. Only the big boys (Woods, Paulson, Mickelson, Duval) can take this route when conditions permit

WCC / West is a unique and special layout. I think the approach shots to the rock outcroppings are superb and still pose a significant challenge -- even to the best players in the world.

Too bad the course is never in the "firm and fast" mold when the event is held. For the last few years the event has been besieged by constant rain showers and as a result tee shots that flirt with the edges can stay put because of the soft conditions. If the event was played in September the pros would be facing a real tiger with the ultra-swift greens.

For a course just over 6700 yards all aspiring architects should visit to see how a  special layout can be crafted that tests nearly all aspects of a golfer's game.


GeoffreyC

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2001, 07:11:00 AM »
Pat

I play there several times a year including the Thursday or Friday a week before the tournament begins.  The width of the fairways is not narrowed specifically for the tournament.  They do however, grow the rough considerably.

Ken Dye has just finished a complete renovation of every bunker on the West course.  He previously did a complete redo of the SOuth course which I posted on previously. He turned the South into a difficult 6500 semi-modern test from the quaint 6000 yard course it had been.

The work on the West course came out rather well but for one (new) bunker on the tournament 13th up in the waste/rock outcropping on the right of the fairway.  Curtis Strange called it a "directional bunker" telling you where NOT to hit.  There is a good article on the West course and the Ken Dye work by our own Tony Pioppi in the current Superintendent News.


TEPaul

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2001, 07:15:00 AM »
It is interesting to me to read here that Westchester's greens are kept very firm and as such put real demand on players and even the Tour pros.

It is even more interesting to me that some speculate that Westchester has narrowed its fairways and grown the rough deep. Others have said that the present fairways might be at their original widths.

What is interesting to me overall with this is it's OK I guess to make a course purposely play harder but what you don't want to do, in my opinion, is to force the player to wedge out of the rough of narrowed down fairways since he can't advance the ball all the way to those firm greens anyway. Let the golfer play golf and go at those firm greens!!

I'm making this post because I heard something this weekend that is really exciting to me. One of America's most famous courses may be becoming increasingly allured with the playability and strategic meanings of really fast and firm greens! But not in and of themselves. Not apparently from just how they putt. Much more now from how a golfer approaches them!!

As such they might be looking now at expanding the fairways back to what they were around 1930 (very wide) and to also really get the "through the green" speed up and very firm. This will bring many of the bunkers back into direct play as the tee to green playability will have a much wider dispersion.

I'm not saying which course this is because the discussion was anything but official knowledge but it sounds like something that is really being looked into. I'm sure some might guess who I'm talking about but I'm not saying.

If this happens it very well might have the most significant and benefical effect that any of us could possibly hope for! If this course does it, it will be noticed and copied!

Obviously, it seems to me anyway, that there should be some caveats with this new policy. The green speeds (and firmness) will be up there very high and the course will likely play extremely intense! As such they will have to condition the membership to accept this new playability and not complain and call for things like green slope and contour to be softened to maintain speeds. The club hopefully can do this and still maintain the necessary amount of pin positions throughout all the holes on the course.

If they can do this with the wider frimer fairways and wider angles to the firmer faster greens they could take playability to a new dimension. Things like GIR and automatic two putting might go out the window to some extent but the shot values (both approach and chipping and putting) could go up bigtime. Course rating and slope might also have to be reanalyzed. Par itself is going to be another matter too!

If they do this what they might do is turn the so-called lights up on their design and its every nuance so much as to be almost blinding!

I don't know if they really are going to do this but I hope they are and I hope they try. It could show an entire membership and others things about their course they likely never knew existed before. They won't be losing their golf balls in deep rough off  narrowed fairways and it will show anybody and everybody that golf is really about the relative quality of any golf shot--whether a drive, an approach, a chip or a putt!

Again, the caveat though! If this doesn't work out they should be prepared to take their course back to the necessary reasonbleness of playability and not do things like screw around with the basic design.

If this is done successfully the fallout could be very interesting. It could even show the world that distance alone may not  necessarily obsolete great architecture. That things like distance and ACCURACY and PLACEMENT and STRATEGY and SHOT QUALITY and MINIMIZING THOUGHTLESS and STUPID MISTAKES might be what it's all about.

That is what it's all about---correct?


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2001, 07:26:00 AM »
Matt, "when conditions are right" only a few can cut the corner.  I agree.  But yesterday, I saw Cink (70th in driving distance) cut the corner for a wedge in.  Conditions may or may not have been right.  But 70th on the tour in driving distance equates to a 277 yard avg.  That would have been top 5 on the tour in 1990.

Mike_Cirba

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2001, 07:26:00 AM »
Tom;

That's encouraging to hear.  I hope the folks at this mystery course do indeed pursue the course of action you've described.

And yes...in case you needed a seconding validation...that is what's it's all about.  


Matt_Ward

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2001, 07:37:00 AM »
Scott -- appreciate your comments.

I still believe the risk and reward for cutting the corner is not worth the effort. If you block it too much you will be as lost as the Titanic!!!

I can only see doing it if you are trailing and you want to unnerve your opponent. Will be interesting to see how the leaders play it today.


GeoffreyC

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2001, 08:00:00 PM »
For some reason the PGA tour staff had the tee markers about 25 yards up from the back tee on #15 both days I watched on TV.  This would obviously make the carry over the tree easier (although still a very good poke even for those guys).  Sad to see them do that.  I would think these guys could play the hole from the same place I did only a week ago.

Tom Paul- That's great news.  


John_Sheehan

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2001, 08:56:00 PM »
TEPaul-
That is indeed great news. Please keep us posted as things develop. I still savor the memories of watching the Colonial Tournament this year.  The hard, fast conditions were the perfect stage for imaginative shot-making; and Sergio and a few others delivered the goods. Exciting golf.

Patrick_Mucci

Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2001, 07:05:00 PM »
Geoffrey C,

I didn't say they narrowed the rough for the tournament.

I did say that I believe, when they retained a new green superintendent many years ago, who I thought came from Winged Foot, that they altered the day to day play of the course by narrowing fairways and letting the rough grow.

Bill Perlee,

I remember the course going from a soft to a firm test within two years of the hiring of a new super, many years ago.  I could have sworn that he came from Winged Foot, but perhaps my memory, like my putting sroke is getting shaky and unreliable with age.


Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Westchester CC ... A Course to Behold
« Reply #22 on: June 26, 2001, 12:48:00 AM »
No Patrick, you are correct.  Ted Horton (more recently of the Pebble Beach Company) left Winged Foot for Westchester once upon a time and, to my recollection, the firmer, faster, narrower conditions quickly followed.

It just took place longer ago than we'd like to realize...