[RJ_Daley]

Ran, I'd estimate about 3.25 hours from Chicago downtown.  Obviously traffic there is outrageous and unpredictable.  But, on I-94 to MIlw. US 41 to Fond du Lac, US 23 to GReen Lake (Lawsonia) It isn't a tough trip.

They are about 2/3rd through restoration, and the best is yet to come with restoring some wrap-around bunkers on a couple of green, bringing the mowing lines back out to original to restore green skylines, (have to also reset sprinkler heads).  Not every hole need this sort of restoration work.  I also think they have a few dilemmas about further tree removal.  They really cleaned out key areas. But one area not "de-treed" is the par 5-13 green complex and par 3-14 greensite.  Geoffs book, page 195 shows 14 relatively open. Now it is set in a cathedral of pines, as is 13 green.  While you are looking at p.195, look at Langford's drawings of two alternate route holes.  Does Lido contest come to mind... coincidence?

[T_MacWood]

It is impossible to ignore the similarities in style between Macdonald/Raynor and Langford. I wonder though if it wasn't the original Chicago that was Langford's influence, Wakonda was built in 1922 and I believe it too reflects the Macdonald style. Langford recieved his engineering degree from Columbia in 1910's. I don't think it inconceivable that he was exposed to the NGLA--a fellow Chicagoan's well publicized return to golf design.

[RJdaley]

Tom, I read somewhere that Wakonda is really good.  But also, it underwent a remodell by Nuggent and the late Bruce Borland.  Can anyone say if it has much Langford left in it?  The muni in Des Moines also advertises their course, Waveland GC as designed by the same fellow that did Wakonda CC.  But, that is an earlier first design by Bendelow.  I wonder if Langford came in later an spruced it up.  I'd like to see all of these and if they have similarities to Chicago.  I'll just bet they do...

[Jeff_Brauer]

RJ,

I have Wakonda pics - including L & M's original routing on my web page, under "Classic Courses". Hope to expand that section in time. You can compare the photos to the rendering, and see many changes. Nugent did the 9th green, Gill (18th)and Packard have been there, a local LA firm added detention ponds and rock walls (good LA work, and probably necessary given its urban location and increased runoff, but not historical). Roger Rulewich is working there now on a 3 year master  plan.

You can see the old Langford bunkers, which are now grass, at about 100 yards off the tee in many locations.

Ran,

I am trying to get a Raynor copycat course going in east Texas, using the Chicago club history as a general guide. As with Silva, I will have to adapt to the topography and perhaps intersperse some new concepts that are not strictly Raynor.

I have used individual features on several courses:

I have a Biarittz swale in Ft Worth - but at the request of an Owner's rep, the concept was moved from a par 3 to a short, double fairway par 4, so it is close to the look of a biaritz, but not in concept. I do have one in planning in Minnesota on the traditional 220 par 3.

In fact, many of my courses now approximate Raynors par 3 "cycle" -with a Redan, Small Platform, punch bowl and what I call "straight forward" par 3 - generally surrounded by bunkers - in place of the Biaritz.

Have also used the Road Hole green copy at Stallion Mountain in Vegas, although if I did it again, it would be better (deeper bunker!)

Not an always a copy of the Chicago GC redan, but pacing off that green (about 200 feet long) has inspired me to include an "Ultra Long" or "Ultra Wide" Green of similar dimensions on several courses....I really don't understand how 7 played as a Redan, but I have tried to get that dramatic a slope in some greens - usually to be cut out by the agronomist or super for the very practical reason of drying out, or spending money on "non cuppable" green area!

Not exactly on topic, but another "Classic" inspiration I have been using once or twice per course is Thomas' "Fair Tee" where the tee extends right to the fairway. Monday, the super and management company were reviewing my plans and the conversation went like this:

"Mr. Brauer, you seem to have made a mistake on your grassing plans - The fairway ties right into the tee.

"Thats not a mistake, that's my homage to the George Thomas "Fairtee" concept.

But, that's not like your other tees. Won't the golfers notice?"

"I hope so!"

Jeff

[Ran Morrissett]

Jeff, Most interesting - how did you come to decide on a Raynor 'copycat' course in east Texas - is it just something you've always wanted to do? The name Seth Raynor doesn't exactly hold much sway in Texas so I doubt it was for marketing reasons! Is Chicago GC your favorite Raynor course?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ran,

The developer is quite unique. On about 100 acres, he is clustering no more than 200 homes, and the golf actually sits well away from most houses. For the most part, they will be seen in the distance. Also, it is adjacent to a state owned natural area of about 1400 acres.

It gives the feel of an old style country club, and the houses are also to be rustic - not slick like new stuff, so I wanted to capture a "step back in time" that I believe the development will have. I want a rough edged course that looks good without great maintenance, and Raynor style came to mind. It didn't hurt that one partner has been a member at Rayor's (or Banks?) Forsgate in NJ.

Fave Raynor is a toss up between Chicago and Shoreacres. I pushed Shoreacres on GD's Hidden Gems list of about 10 years back. Of all the old courses, Raynor courses most - to my eye - have the look of "you couldn't possibly replicate that today". That a few are trying is great news. I just hope golfers understand and appreciate a true (both halfs still green surface) Biarittz, Redan, etc.

Jeff

[paul albanese]

I had the wonderful opportunity to play the CGC last summer with amateur champion Bill Sheehan (who is a great historian, too) and it was very interesting to play the course with someone who knew the history of the course.
  I always tell people that it felt like visiting a perfectly presevered Victorian home -- all the little old style details were still visible i.e the 90 degree greens edges and lack of impeding trees.

Also, the Redan there is one of the best I have ever played.

And, yes, I think something about the exclusivity gives the place a sense of mystery, too -- but, I try not to let that affect judgement.  

Playing the course, I just kept feeling like a flapper was going to come walking out of the trees or Seth himself may drive up in model T -- it was like going back in time.

[Lou_Duran]

Ran,
Mike Nuzzo<

What book(s) are you referring to?  If you were building a personal golf architecture library which would be the top 10 - 15 "must have titles"?  As one who has borrowed several books from Jeff B (and always returned them!), I am in the process of acquiring several and your guidance would be appreciated.

[Lou_Duran]

Ran,
Mike Nuzzo<

What book(s) are you referring to?  If you were building a personal golf architecture library which would be the top 10 - 15 "must have titles"?  As one who has borrowed several books from Jeff B (and always returned them!), I am in the process of acquiring several and your guidance would be appreciated.

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