[kilfara]

Ran made an interesting point in the thread about Rye Golf Club when he said that most people who play the course in the summer (when the fairways are like bowling alleys) tend to view the course much less favorably than those who play it during the wetter winter months. To me, that very statement sounds like a strike against the course: a truly great course should be equally enjoyable in any kind of weather, shouldn't it?

To give another example: a couple of years ago I played Nairn with a bunch of friends, and the wind was blowing out of the west (the prevailing wind, I'm told, is from the east).  Most of the long par 4s were playing into the wind instead of downwind, and the reverse was true of a number of easy holes (one of my friends reached the par-5 18th with a driver and a sand wedge). The course definitely seemed worse to us in such an "unusual" wind, which rather lessened my opinion of it.

The questions I'd like to ask, then, are two:

1) Is my premise - that truly great courses don't lose any of their greatness in unusual conditions - correct?

2) Are there any noteworthy exceptions to the above rule?

Cheers,
Darren

[Patrick_Mucci]

Darren,

Shinnecock, I believe, was designed with the prevailing wind in mind, NGLA to a lessor extent,  Changes in the prevailing wind make both courses harder to score on.

But, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong

[John_Conley]

Some locations are more prone to changes in weather than others, so I don't think it ties into architecture that much.

Look at the scores in any Dunhill Cup in the past and you'll see a lot of high 70s that win matches when it gets ugly.  The next day scores can be mid 60s.  Did the course change?  No, but some of the par 4s become very testy when cold and windy - and we know the layout is very benign on a calm day.

I believe the course record was shot by either Strange or O'Meara in the event just one day or two away from a day nobody broke 70.

[Paul Turner]

Darren

Concerning Rye: when it's playing rock hard, I guess it just depends how tolerant you are of strange/unlucky bounces (although not all the fairways are lumpy).  It would be interesting to know how the members adjust their game through the seasons . They must use some unusual tactics.  At least the course changes with the seasons!

Any of the great links courses that have a lot of contour will become somewhat flukey.  It's just that Rye appears to drain faster than the rest and is in a relatively dry corner of Britain.

Only the "flat" links courses like Hoylake, Muirfield or Carnoustie (your fave  ) can become rock hard and still play similarly to softer conditions, although the bunkers start to have more influence.  These courses also have a good mix of hole direction too and so are less affected by change of wind direction.

Like Nairn, I believe Troon is routed into and out of the prevailing wind and probably suffers from the same problem.  With an out and back it's obviously better to route with a prevailing cross wind (Rye is somewhat out and back with the prevailing wind across most holes).

[kilfara]

Paul/John,

I think a course which plays differently throughout the year and in different wind/weather conditions can ENHANCE its greatness. (The Old Course certainly fits that description.) My questions have more to do with courses where changing conditions DETRACT from its quality. (Ran's assertion seems to be: Rye in the winter = great; Rye in the summer = merely good.) I suppose its a bit of a fine line with many courses between the enhancing and detracting effects of the weather - beauty is largely in the eye of the beholder, of course. But I'm curious to hear other's opinions of which courses fall on either side of this divide.

To give two examples of courses I've never played   (maybe someone could confirm my secondhand impressions):

--Woking, I'm told, is pretty close to great when it's playing hard and fast but is certainly only good when moist and slow.

--NGLA is great when playing slow and otherworldly when playing hard and fast (i.e. its greatness is not dependent upon wind and weather, for it is great even under the least favorable conditions).

Obviously, repeated exposure to a course seems to be a key requirement in being able to answer this question....

Cheers,
Darren

[Jeff_Brauer]

Darren,

Most people think of it the other way around with Scottish courses. They are designed to play in the wind and can be quite defensless in lesser winds. Of course, in a Caddyshack type gale, almost any course will become difficult to score on, without the devine intervention.

Most courses are designed in a prevailing wind in mind - Florida courses usually are concerned with resort season winter winds, Chicago with the SW wind of summer, etc.  Texas and Scotland are tough - there can be a 10 month season with almost directly opposite prevailing winds. Some assumptions must be made, which, if made to maximize play in the prevailing wind, makes it very difficult otherwise.  The other option is to provide more generous options to account for different winds, at the expense of reducing interest in the normal wind.

This often means (to me) bigger, rounder greens that can be attacked with a hook or a fade, for example. Designing strictly for the prevailing wind, a longer narrower green angled (and contoured) in the direction of the wind, and bunkered on the downwind side makes execution pretty interesting, with less room for error to hit the green.

I think the wind conditions could be negated even further through match play. Who cares if you shoot a 78 (or whatever) if you have an even chance in difficult conditions of winning some holes.

Jeff

[Paul Turner]

Darren

As you know, I've no experience of NGLA either so can just go by the written word:

In Gourmet review, Tom Doak thought that the course had been playing too soft with the ball stopping on slopes, giving "goofy" stances.  (I think this may have been changed since, with the turf firming up).

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