How do you turn back the Clock ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim Kennedy,

You're free to express your thoughts as you please,
I expressed my thoughts as they came to me.

I thought that the phrase, "..... swept by the winds, and the winds of change..." was the key to the post.

Implying that a different era may be dawning on the play of the game.  

If Fazio had designed a Shadow Creek on this site, but Steve Wynn, adopted and implemented Ken Bakst's thinking on how golf should be played on the course, I would give him the same accolades.

It's not about the architecture, it's about the will of the owner/membership.  It's not about what's in the ground, it's about what's in the mindset.

[TEPaul]

Pat:

A bit off the subject of this thread but did you know, at one point, Tom Fazio was considered for Friar's Head?

Also, remember to turn back ALL your clocks today! Do I have to remind you of everything?

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

YES

YES

[TEPaul]

Actually, there were three points there Pat and the last one should have been the biggest YES of all!

[Mike Hendren]

Bumping this forward in light of Ran's outstanding profile of Friar's Head.  I recalled challenging Doyen Mucci's assertion that "Friar's Head is the first step in changing the culture of golf."  Fortunately, Doyen Paul had my back!

How influential will Friar's Head be?

Regards,

Mike

[Guest]

I predict Friar's Head will have no impact on the game whatsoever.  

Are you sure Tom Paul backed you up  ?

Ran's summary and the pictures seem to confirm what Pat Mucci indicated.

[Mike Hendren]

Guest,

How so?

Regards,

Mike

[SPDB!]

Mike - thanks for bringing this thread back up.

Pat Mucci - I had forgotten about our little wager re: yardage on sprinkler caps at Merion. What will it be - dinner or two dozen?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Hendren,

You predicted that Friar's Head will have no impact on the game, whatsoever.

Based on what I've seen and played, I disagree.

No need to debate the issue, the test of time will determine who is correct.

SPDB,

I too had forgotten, but.... I haven't yet conceded.
In the event the snow melts before June, let's have an independent party make an inspection and the call.

I've thought about payment and have decided that dinner is more in keeping with the GCA spirit.  In fact, dinner after golf would be even better.  We can discuss architecture in general, courses and architects in particular, and how incredibly wrong TEPaul is on almost any subject matter.
In fact, let's invite him along for golf and dinner, on me.
How about dinner after a round at Merion, when I can verify the results of that independent judge, who by the way, cannot be related to, or even know TEPaul, in order to be eligible.  Maybe, Gil Hanse and his wife will join us, as I owe them for their hospitality.  Just don't let TE sit next to Gil.  Also let Gil tell you about the time he told TEPaul about the revocation of the STYMIE being responsible for the decline in chipping in America.
As the credit card ad says, the look on TE's face was......
PRICELESS.

[guest]

Now look who's a member of Merion.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Guest,

We thought you were.

[Mike Hendren]

Patrick,

Count me among those blown away by Ran's outstanding profile of Friar's Head and those who would embrace and eternally appreciate the opportunity to play there.  There is no greater fan of classical architecture, only many who are more literate and articulate!

However, I continue to question the apostolic impact of Friar's Head, and any other course for that matter.  An effective apostle must not only have a strong message, well communicated, but also must be willing to take the message to the audience.  Friar's Head is not the better mouse-trap to which the masses will flock.  It appears to be an amazing site-specific golf course benefitting from the rare combination of skilled architects and craftsmen, financial clout and a visionary who understands the heart of the game.  

Using a thin analogy, Camden Yards might have spawned a rebirth of classical baseball parks, but it has had "no impact on the game whatsoever."  

By the way, since our previous debate, I played Talking Stick North and South earlier this month - my first exposure to C & C.  I had a blast and liked both courses immensely, but alas, experienced no epiphany.  Perhaps I just don't "get it."  Funny though, I pretty darned sure I "get" Donald Ross.  

You are correct that time will tell.  Regardless, kudos to Messrs.  Coore, Crenshaw and Bakst, and thank you for your insight.  I apologize for the rambling, but it's late and the forecast calls for rain all dad gummed weekend.

Regards,

Mike

[Matt Dupre]

I hope I'm not being presumptuous, but if I'm reading into the wager correctly   perhaps I can help...

Merion doesn't have yardages marked on their sprinkler heads - caddies have to memorize the yardages (there are cheat sheets) in order to move up the A-B-C chain.  (I caddied while in college and those little quizzes were as tough as the blue book kind  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Hendren,

Did NGLA impact golf in America ?

Friar's Head has a unique number of factors, which, in combination might have an impact on golf in America.

Central to that impact is the culture Ken is trying to establish.
A culture that I feel many are yearning for.
A culture that celebrates the game.
A culture that is the home for those tired of the journey.

Friar's Head offers a REFRESHING departure from most other golf courses and golfing experiences, and the impact upon the golfer playing there is positively, contageous.

And, just as the longest journey begins with one step, so can cultural changes begin with one club.

Catalysts for the change in culture could be the following.

Friar's Head isn't as remote for immense golfing populations as Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes.
Friar's Head isn't far from one of the most populous cities and metro areas in the world.
Friar's Head sits amongst a group of golf courses that people come from around the world to visit and play.
Friar's Head will benefit from those who make the pilgrimage to other courses as well as Friar's Head.

If Ken maintains, with minor fine tuning and adjustments, the standards he has established, I think that the club will have an impact on the culture of golf in America.

As I said, time will tell.

But, that's just my opinion.  TEPaul is still wrong !  

[Steve L.]

I don't think that a private, fairly "exclusive" club will have any impact on the culture of golf in America.  The culture of golf needs to be made affordable, to allow lower and middle income kids the opportunity to play decent courses and learn the game.  And to appreciate the game the way most in this DG do.

The truly affordable courses are overrun in most places, and often not worthy of great appreciation.  It's tougher today to engage in the game for lower/middle income people.  

Everything everyone says about every great course is true.  But the true "culture" of golf is in the masses who play weekends on C- marginally kept public courses.  Kudos to designers who bring sophisticated design at a reasonable price.  Kudos to golf course operators who offer deep Junior discounts at ALL TIMES OF THE DAY.  And still, Kudos to the brilliance of todays designers for creating great places for golf, whether public or private - their efforts have yielded herioc results.  

To conclude this ramble....  What I read about Rustic Canyon & Apache Stronghold are better shapers of the "culture" of golf IMO than an exclusive private club in a super exclusive Long Island neighborhood (regardless of how impressive it is).  

[Patrick_Mucci]

MDupre,

Do you know TEPaul ?

Have you ever read one of his posts ?

If Yes to either question, you're disqualified !  

Steve L,

You're confusing affordability with golfing culture.

Having no yardage markers has nothing to do with the cost of green's fees, initiation charges or dues.
Having no rakes in or around bunkers has nothing to do with the cost of green's fees, intitiation charges or dues.
Pace of play, caddies and playing on a golf course with firm and fast conditions has nothing to do with the cost of green's fees, initiation charges or dues.

If imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, I suspect that other courses will attempt to adopt some of the "cultural" qualities that Friar's Head possesses, and it has nothing to do with money.

You may be forgetting an important factor.
If a well intended individual wants to create affordable golf, how can he do so in an area where the cost of land is high, if not prohibitive ?

As an example, do you know what the purchase of the land at BAYBERRY cost ?

Tell me, and tell the others, how can that individual possibly recoup his investment, while at the same time, provide "affordable" golf ?

On the other hand, Friar's Head just might become a model for other private and public courses to emulate, culturally and architecturally.

[Steve L.]

Pat...

Fair observations all...  But, a few things...

Lack of yardage markers or whether bunkers have rakes don't make a golf course good or bad...  They affect the "experience" - and some players find yardage on sprinkler heads helpful.  I'd take sprinkler yardage all day long before i'd advocate the damn golf cart GPS!

The best thing about any golf course IMO is that it makes the best of the land on which it was built.  Friars Head, Sand Hills, Pacific Dunes are obvious examples...  The good news is that this criteria is being paid more attention today thanks to the good work of many fine GCArchitects than it's been in years past...

Developing a golf course isn't a philanthropic excercise - no doubt.  But for the "culture of golf" as you describe it, the fine affordable public facilities touch a greater number and offer many the experience of positive golf.  To that end - I appreciate the efforts of GCArchitects making the best of lower priced, often inferior sites and construction budgets to deliver very good golf at affordable rates...  Hopefully the efforts of the courses we've discussed inspires creativity for more constrained projects.  

[SPDB]

Pat -
Your plan sounds like the right idea. Merion might be the place to do it, also. Recall that it was you and I who stood alone against the tide in holding that Berkshire's bunker bore a stunning resemblance to the new Merion versions. Perhaps a closer examination, with TEPaul, our opponent in that thread, is in order. But be advised, when you overcook your fairway wood or long iron into the bunker on 8, you will have only your caddy as your guide, and not the yardage cap on a sprinkler head.  


Count me in agreement that certain nuances of a club, its philosophies, or its policies can all be infectious. How else could the first tee habits of a Winged Foot golfer become standard operating procedure for every golfer who has blocked his opening drive OB? Or the betting tendencies of a couple of a Nassau CC gentleman become the game of choice for a majority of golfers? These are cute examples, but they are indicative of how emulation finds its way into practice.

[TEPaul]

Just what am I so wrong about on this thread? Why am I some kind of opponent on this thread? And what's this bet about?

The supreme irony I find on this thread, and I do mean supreme, is here's Pat Mucci now singing the praises of Friar's Head to the high heavens, the efforts of Bakst and Coore and Crenshaw too.

These are the exact same people, particularly Coore and Crenshaw as architects that Pat Mucci has been accusing me for years of practicing architecture "FAVORITISM" with by praising them so much and what great stuff they can do, particularly at Friar's Head before Pat Mucci even knew how to get there.

Obviously Pat Mucci was struggling to understand great archtiecture and what these architects do. The fact was back then he'd never laid eyes on anything they'd done--none of it!

Now Pat Mucci is acting like he discovered them. What a joke! It's almost noon right now as I type this and Pat Mucci is so bizarre he might try to say I'm claiming it's midnight.

Pat Mucci probably still thinks Coore and Crenshaw have nothing whatsoever to do with Friar's Head. He probably still thinks Wynn could have done exactly the same thing at Friar's Head with Fazio. A bigger joke still. In his mind the architect has nothing to do with it--give any architect the same marching orders and they're going to produce the exact same thing if you just ask them! The biggest joke of all.

Pat Mucci's opinions on Friar's Head, now all glowing apparently, are nothing more than common plagiarism of opinion!

Not only does Pat Mucci steal opinions he formerly challenged but when he finally sees the light he not only acts like his opinions are original but he even claims the very same person that taught it all to him in the first place thinks the opposite.

It's positively bizarre--but that's just Pat Mucci.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve L,

I think "culture" and "architecture" are distinctly different.

Some of my comments were directed toward "cultural" changes, not architectural results or precedents.

In addition to producing an exceptional golf course and facility, Ken is going a step further, attempting to change the way golf is played at Friar's Head, and I applaud him.
I feel that some of this will rub off on other clubs over time, that other courses will emulate and adopt the "Friar's Head" way of playing golf, and I think that's a step in the right direction and good for the game of golf.  I know that I'll certainly encourage and endorse a movement in that direction.

Steve, how many sites are there like the Friar's Head site ? and how rare is the situation where the land owner becomes a partner rather than a seller, which invariably drives up the cost of golf ?  There are several factors which lined up, like the planets, to make this a unique opportunity and a unique golf course and golf facility.  Let's not discount those factors, and their rarity.

SPDB,

You may recall that TE conceded that the Merion-Berkshire similarity of the bunker faces and tops was striking after he rode by and stopped and examined same.  So there is hope for him yet.

I would like to include Gil and his wife as they were very gracious when we visited with them.  Gil may also want to update TE on why the STYMIE should be returned.

TEPaul,

I had played a Coore & Crenshaw golf course before you even heard of them, back when you thought they were brands of beer and melon at your local grocery store.

And, just because they designed and built a wonderful golf course at Friar's Head doesn't mean that you haven't exhibited favoritism on their behalf.  

Ask yourself, how many people have their home wallpapered with likenesses of Ben & Bill ??  How many guys, when looking through the racks of Playboy and Penthouse, ask the store clerk if they have any magazines featuring Ben & Bill ?  
How many guys wrote to the Governor of the State of Vermont, The Executor of the Estate of Jerry Garcia and the President and Chairman of a Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream in an attempt to force them to change their name to Ben & Bills Ice Cream ?  How many guys name their dog and cat, Ben & Bill ?
And you still claim that you don't indulge in favoritism ?

How come the answering machine at your house says,
Ben & Bill aren't here right now, but If you'll leave a message for them, I'll see that they get it  ?
How come your Pennslyvania License plate reads
"C&C#1FAN" ?

And lastly, and I didn't want to reveal this, how come your Doctor Denton pajamas have a picture of Ben & Bill on the front, and on the back, the words,    "President for life
                                                   Ben & Bill fan club" ?

I have no doubt, that if Ken had retained Fazio, that the property would have yielded a superb golf course.

With respect to my opinions on Friar's Head, I believe I offered them before anyone else, thus making plagiarism impossible, and your use of the english language....attrocious.

You may even recall, long before the golf course was grassed, that others were singing the praises of the dune and bluff holes, while I felt that the flat holes may be the best of all.

I've never been critical of C&C's work, only the deity status granted to them, to the exclusion of all others.

But, you're still invited to dinner, but..... PLEASE
Don't wear those Doctor Dentons out in public  

[corey miller]

Pat you made the distintion at Friars Head that seperate from the Architecture it has the potential to change the culture of golf.  Fine.

you also said that if Ken Bakst had chosen Fazio the property would have yielded a superb course. Fine.

Do you believe a Fazio led project could change the culture of golf?  

It seems to me that part of the "culture" at a modern club starts with the selection of the architect.

[brad miller]

Pat, while I believe Tom Fazio might have built a fine golf course on the Friar's Head site, he does build fine new courses, he would not have built the masterpiece that is Friar's Head today. Mr Fazio may be golf architecture's ultimate businessman  but he is far from golf architectures current greatest artist. 4-5 site visits with 2 being cocktail parties for prospective members isn't the way to "finding" great golf holes and a routing for the ages.

I would bet you that a Fazio and/or Jones routing would have had many more tee and green views of the water but not to the benifit of great golf. Wasn't the site of the Preserve considered by many to be world class, what is the result? A good solid fine golf course, but not a masterpiece for the ages, just another sacrifice fly, how about a home run.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Corey Miller,

It doesn't matter who the architect is.

It is Ken Bakst that is attempting to change the culture.

Is there a culture change at Notre Dame, Hidden Creek, and others, or is it unique to Friar's Head, where one man with a vision resides ?

Brad Miller,

I don't think Ken Bakst would have permitted absentee architecture.

Have you seen the short course at Pine Valley ?

[corey miller]

It is one man with a vision.  My point is if the vision is to turn back the clock and change the culture the one man with a vision would not choose Fazio IMHO.

[brad miller]

Pat, time spent on site is "just one" of the many reasons why C&C, Doak, Hanse...... are different from TF. IMHO TF really thinks he is golf all-time best archie, the new golden agers hold out to much respect for the greats of yesteryear to even think such a thought.

Yes I have seen TF's  work at PV but don't you think Fazio being a member there with Mr. Ransome looking over his shoulder had something to do with that work product, most holes are copies anyway, this is not a comparable to finding, routing etc of a brand new project.