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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #100 on: February 22, 2003, 12:45:45 PM »
Corey Miller,

I think you need to re-read the entire thread, as you have mixed the two seperate concepts, the original and the recent.

How can you and others know what Fazio and Bakst would have collaborated to produce ?

How do you know what the routing and holes would be like.

Stop taking ridiculous cheap shots at everybody and just appreciate Friar's Head for the way it's designed, built and run.

Brad Miller,

Fazio found the routing at the 10 hole course and duplicated portions of other holes.  While I'm more of a fan of the real deal 18 hole course, I think he did a pretty amazing job.

Wouldn't you agree that Ken Bakst would have the same role as Ernie Ransome, and then some ?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #101 on: February 22, 2003, 01:01:06 PM »
Please let me know where I took a cheap shot. Because i do not think that Fazio could have produced a course as good as is at FH? Becuase I do not think that Fazio could produce a course that could change the "culture" of golf?

You did say cheap shots at everbody so i am not sure who else I may have offended.  Fazio is a fine archtect who builds good courses but I think he is a much better businessman than architect.

and in my opinion Bakst-cc turned out better than Bakst-fazio and if my opinion is offensive to you or Tom I am sorry.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #102 on: February 22, 2003, 01:03:41 PM »
Corey Miller,

Question,

How do you compare an actual course to a hypothetical one ?

Answer,

Only through the bias  ;D of the mind !  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #103 on: February 22, 2003, 01:52:36 PM »
Now Mucci is hallucinating! He's confused critical praise with favoritism. This is the work of a mind that has let bias paranoia get totally out of control.

For God sakes man, get with Dr. Katz real quick or soon even he won't be able to help you back to semi-reality.

I already told you I'll pick up the first dozen visits and I'll make good on that but you need to see him fast or even he will be spinning his wheels with you.

While you sit and wait for your appointments at his office I'll even supply you with a good dictionary to read with various words earmarked--it appears you're in desperate need of that too.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Ernie Ransome

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #104 on: February 22, 2003, 02:08:46 PM »
PATRICK
 WHY DO YOU HAVE TO DRAG ME INTO THIS DISCUSION? I COLABORATED ON A FREAKEN PRACTICE RANGE, NOT A GOLF COURSE. WE EXHIBITED NO CREATIVITY AND SIMPLY COPIED WHAT MORE TALENTED MEN HAD DESIGNED DECADES AGO. DON'T INSULT KENNY AND COORE WITH SUCH LAME COMPARISONS, WE COULDN'T HAVE CREATED A FRIAR'S HEAD IN A MILLION YEARS.

GOOD DAY.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Billy C

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #105 on: February 22, 2003, 02:14:45 PM »
"stop taking ridiculous cheap shots at everybody"  maybe the author should apologize and remove the comment. But then again he is never wrong. what is the definition of "cheap shot?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Turner

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #106 on: February 22, 2003, 02:39:42 PM »
I don't believe that FH will have much impact on the game at large-it's too private and GOLF is too big today.

But if Timber Point was restored to Alison's vision, then maybe.

Wasn't aware Tom Paul had visited Berkshire recently!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #107 on: February 22, 2003, 02:44:22 PM »
"Wasn't aware Tom Paul had visited Berkshire recently!"

Paul:

Of course I haven't. I've never been there. Pat Mucci has always been remarkably confused about all kinds of things, and is getting more so every day. You know that!

This was the only time, in fact, that Patrick has even remotely conceded that an architectural photograph was useful for any reason and the only reason he did that on this Berkshire/Merion point it that it suited his bizarre argument.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Paul Turner

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #108 on: February 22, 2003, 02:54:53 PM »
"This was the only time, in fact, that Patrick has even remotely conceded that an architectural photograph was useful for any reason and the only reason he did that on this Berkshire/Merion point it that it suited his bizarre argument."

Yeah, and wasn't that the thread where Patrick deleted all his posts?  Perhaps covering his tracks  :D

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2003, 05:42:35 AM »
Ernie Ransome,  aka ?

You're losing your reading comprehension skills.
Go back and reread the post, then tell me who dragged your name into this.  Hint, it wasn't me.

Billy C,  aka ?

Hint, use a dictionary in conjunction with a thesaurus and the answer should come to you within a few days.

TEPaul,

The argument was so bizarre that you agreed with it.
I should have known something was amiss.

Paul Turner,

Have you seen the new Merion bunkers in the last year ?
I can assure and guarantee you that the eradication had nothing to do with covering tracks, but keep guessing and I'll tell you if you hit the mark.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2003, 05:57:05 AM »
"TEPaul,

The argument was so bizarre that you agreed with it.
I should have known something was amiss."

Patrick:

Yes, yes, I vaguely recall now. The truth is I don't do very well with large amounts of bizzareness. It tends to confuse me. I only do well with the logical, the pure, the truth and the light. Those latter concepts might all be grouped into what could be called FACTS!

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Guest

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2003, 08:10:26 AM »
"How do you turn back the Clock?"

Good hypothetical question Pat. It is a question of course with "no definitive answer". It is open to speculation. But I am glad you asked it for the sake of rounding out discussion here. I would just ask that you remember that you ask these kinds of questions the next time you decide to try to "turn back" others asking their own questions. Thanks.

Oh, and I know you might believe that your answer is "definitive" but that doesn't make it so.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2003, 09:21:57 AM »
Pat-Without going to a dictionary to parse every word I do admit I am biased.  I have played two C&C courses which are "best in world" class and I have played ~10 Fazio courses which range from average to very good.  My opinion is that C&C are better architects and it would seem perhaps that Fazio may be a little more profit oriented.

I stand by "my opinion" that a developer who had an interest in positively changing the culture of golf would not hire Fazio.  Again this opinion is derived from the two C&C clubs i have seen contrasted with the many Fazio's I have seen and that are already in the ground , and which may in fact may have taken us farther from the culture you are speaking about.

I will remember also never to compare a hypothetical project with an actual one as per your suggestion.


You may not understand this but saying someone took a "ridiculous cheap shot" is not what a gentleman does.  I do not believe I did this and if I did I will publicly apologize to whoever I offended.  

This is as polite as I can be or I really will be taking a "shot" though I am not sure if it would be deemed "cheap".
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2003, 09:45:36 AM »
Corey Miller,

Put aside the "look" for a second.

How did the strategy, the shot values and the playability of the courses compare ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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guest

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2003, 09:51:52 AM »
Mr. Mucci, put aside just another one of your many questions and respond to Corey Miller about calling him a cheap shot artist, maybe you can turn back the clock by apologizing and removing your comment from that post.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Turner

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2003, 10:00:12 AM »
"Have you seen the new Merion bunkers in the last year ?
I can assure and guarantee you that the eradication had nothing to do with covering tracks, but keep guessing and I'll tell you if you hit the mark. "


No I haven't seen them, but what has that got to do with your claims about TEP?  I don't think anyone on this DG has seen both sets of bunkers.

My guesses:

A fit of pique?

Realising you'd hijacked Tommy's thread?

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2003, 10:05:41 AM »
Guest,

With a limited data base it may be difficult if not impossible for one to divine an architects design philosophy, let alone compare the philosophy of one of the members of a co-design team, to that of another architect's design philosophy.

Don't you first have to seperate and identify the design philosophy of each one of the co-designers in order to begin the comparison with another individuals design philosophy.

Is anyone on this site capable of such an extraction ?

And, if not, doesn't the exercise become futile ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Ken Bakst

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2003, 10:20:08 AM »
Pat

Are you suggesting that the look of a golf course on the one hand and its strategy, shot values and playability on the other are mutually independent concepts and that they are not inextricably linked?  Does the look of a golf course and its hazards not affect your psychology as a golfer?  If the bunkers and waste areas at Pine Valley were replaced with  modern looking and maintained contrivances without changing their locations or even depths, do you think that your psychology as a golfer would remain unaffected?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2003, 10:35:07 AM »
Paul Turner,

You're now 0 for 3, but keep guessing.

With respect to The Berkshire bunker pictured,
TEPaul and I had just played Merion and I was struck by the remarkable similarity in the bunker tops.

Tommy Naccarato had posted the picture of The Berkshire bunker to illustrate a point.  Having just played Merion a day or two earlier, the image of Merion's bunkers was fresh in my mind, and they were amazingly, strikingly similar to the bunker posted by Tommy.  I indicated same, and TEPaul upon further inspection agreed, as does SPDB.

I concluded that the picture of The Berkshire bunker had an uncanny resemblance to the bunkers I just saw at Merion.

Why do the police show the victim of a mugging photos of possible perpetrators if not to draw reasonable conclusions on the likeness of the photos to the actual perpetrator ?

Or do you feel that the victim must be subjected to additional on site muggings by the potential perpetrators, in full view of the police, in order to obtain a positive ID ?

When TEPaul agrees with me, you know the architecture police have approved the process and the conclusion.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2003, 10:39:39 AM »
KenB:

That's exactly what he's saying. Have mercy on the man--or at least humor him, as I do. He's not figured out after all these years and all this wailing and gnashing of teeth that various things in architecture are actually related and interconnected.

Psychology in golf architecture? Oh that's way too depthy for him. He can't actually touch that with his L-wedge and get the proper amount of spin on it to recognize it exists.

Patrick's mind lives in a universe of constant concern over little bits and pieces of some kind of data. He can never connect things, he can never open his mind--everthing must have formulae attached to it like 2+2=4 for him to fathom anything.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:02 PM by -1 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #120 on: February 23, 2003, 10:53:31 AM »
Ken Bakst,

I think that strategy can be viewed in the absolute,
that it can be isolated from its surroundings.

Would the 10th hole play any different, would the strategy be altered if condo's instead of woods bordered the right side of the hole ?

In your Pine Valley example, the strategy wouldn't change, it is constant or static as long as the features retain their location, configuration and relativity to one another.

Psychology is my behavior, and in the context of playing the hole, my strategy, my tactics, my play will be unaltered by form, as opposed to substance, which is at the core of my decision making process.

Having won many tournaments, including the USGA Mid-Amateur, I'd be curious with respect to your mind set when faced with a hazard fronting a green.  Does the tactical signal your eye receives and sends to the brain for processing differ
based upon your evaluation of the aesthetics ?  And, is your shot selection changed or altered because of the aesthetics ?

If you asked me which one I liked better, or which one I enjoyed playing more, my answer would be different, but the play of the hole would remain unaltered, strategically or tactically.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #121 on: February 23, 2003, 10:58:00 AM »
TEPaul,

AHA, No wonder my mind is off kilter, and that we don't think alike.

I never knew that:   2 = 2 = 4

My failing is, that I thought 2 + 2 = 4

This opens up a whole new world for me.  Thanks  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #122 on: February 23, 2003, 11:04:50 AM »
Patrick:

Thank you very much for that last post. In the recent spirit on this thread of fostering undulterated opinion no matter how diverse or apparently in disagreement it may be with others, any opinion should be considered a good thing.

So congratulations, again, on that last post--it's a most eloquent expression of a compartmentalized mind.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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Paul Turner

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #123 on: February 23, 2003, 11:06:14 AM »
Patrick

I went back and had a look at that old thread, quoting you:

"As to deleted posts, I did so on several threads, because I wanted to.  There was no motive other than that I was a little annoyed.  Don't overread into it."

Wasn't I correct with my second guess??

The puffy heather growing out of the top lip on the Berkshire bunkers is natural; so other than superficially, I still see little resemblance between the two sets.  You won't have any difficulty climbing out of the bunkers at The Berkshire!


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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TEPaul

Re: How do you turn back the Clock ?
« Reply #124 on: February 23, 2003, 11:07:48 AM »
Patrick:

Thank you for the reminder of my 2=2=4 typo. You'll note however, I fixed the typo two minutes before you felt the need to remind me. God help me please if it was mental telepathy.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
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