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Gib_Papazian

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« on: June 27, 2001, 07:38:00 PM »
Neal Meagher and I have just returned from Long Island after a rather intensive week long junket. It was fascinating to see things through the eyes of a lifelong designer who had never been to the headwaters of golf in America. For myself, it further clarified and reinforced most of my long held impressions.

Some loose thoughts:

Maidstone is astonishing in that every single element about the club and golf course seems to blend in perfectly with its surroundings. I am not one to put much stock in clubhouses, but rounding the corner and seeing it standing there so majestically flying its flags gave me chills. The golf course communicates a sense of rustic appeal with old world putting surfaces and quaint charm.

Superb collection of cape tee shots and a terrific set of par threes.  

However, the club seems to maintain the course with an air of indifference, almost as if it is looked upon as just one more activity for the members to do when not laying on the beach or lunching on the veranda. Yes, it has an air of comfortable permanence, but that philosophy can be taken too far - in this case it appears to suffer from neglect.

Neal and I were a bit taken aback by the devolution of the bunkers particularly. Some are little more than grassy pits with a narrow strip of muddy sand running through them. The putting surfaces were in fine condition, but the otherwise complete absence of attention to details really detracts. In addition, the rough lines have wandered out into the fairways, invalidating some extremely well thought out bunkering schemes. It appears the Superintendent might be lacking direction.

Perhaps the membership do not know what they have, or maybe they just don’t care, but it would really only require a minimum of extra effort bring it back.

 

Easthampton plays like two courses. The front nine is routed beautifully with intricate twists and turns through thicket of trees. The interior contours on the putting surfaces are full of little humps, bumps and hollows, but I wonder how they will play when the members begin to demand modern greens speeds. Although visually arresting, the front is far too claustrophobic for my taste. The fairways are fairly narrow, and errant tee shots end up in knee high grasses. There is not the room for real width there, so the holes are not as strategic as most of C&C’s work.

The back (10-16) is routed through what I’m told was once a potato field. Here, the holes are more expansive and bear a strong resemblance in bunker shapes to Talking Stick North. The putting surfaces on this side of the property are wild, particularly the short par four 11th hole. The 17th is a medium length par four with what looks to be a modified Biarritz green, except here the deep swale is incorporated into the putting surface, similar to what Doak did at the Creek Club’s 11th hole.

Interesting and fun golf course, though its lack of cohesion keeps it from being one of their best efforts overall.  We were told the membership fee is going to be 250 grand, but they are in a fight with the city and are operating out of a residence on the property.

Westhampton was a complete shock. IMHO, this should easily make the top 100 Classic list. We combed it for several hours with Mike Rewinski, and with two exceptions, his restorations and modifications are brilliant. He has a crystal clear grasp of the genre, and even though Brian Silva had a hand in a few things over there also, everything still hangs together beautifully. Neal had never seen a Punchbowl green and nearly swallowed his tongue at first glance. I am trying to recall another par-3 Punchbowl combination, but none come to mind.

Pretty decent Redan, but the Short hole has a prize winning green. Pat Mucci’s complaint that the tee should not have been extended on the Short is well founded. In a stiff wind, the green is segmented so may different ways that to get it close would require too much luck.
                     
If you love Raynor as much as I do, this golf course will be fascinating. It has undergone some change, but with few exceptions, Seth would love what’s there now, and maybe that is all that matters. Westhampton is forgiving enough to play every day and never get tired, but has so many twists and quirks that it looks difficult to score on. A rock solid 7.5 in an awfully tough neighborhood.

We ended up playing Shinnecock twice, a rare treat indeed. I continue to be impressed at how classy and straightforward this course is. With few exceptions (#10 comes to mind), most of the longer holes invite the run-up shot. However, the golf course is all about angles, and if you manage to put your tee shot in the right spot, the next swing is relatively tension free. The green contours are not dramatic, but there seems to be a pronounced pitch on nearly every green. The golf course demands a full arsenal of shotmaking, and I suppose that is why Corey Pavin and Raymond Floyd took home the cup. By the way, Tempo Raymundo was beating balls on the range. It must be nice to live 5 minutes from site of your greatest triumph.  

Joel Stewart is right, the condition of the course is perfect - maybe too much so. I had forgotten how similar Pinehurst is to Shinnecock in terms of greens falling away sharply at the fringes. But if forced to draw a comparison, this still looks, feels and plays like the Muirfield of America and there isn’t much more to say than that.

Atlantic, on the other hand, is a different world. Perhaps after Shinnecock there was no chance of impressing us, but I still wanted to keep an open mind and discover what is good about the golf course. Besides, our host is a wonderful man, one of only 150 family memberships. However, I’m sorry to report that Atlantic is only a fraction of what it could have been.

The mounding along the fairways is so forced, mechanical and artificial that it is literally jarring to the eye. The same problems endemic to Poppy Ridge and Lake Merced are also here - especially the green complex repetition.

Golf ought to be 18 different questions, not the same question 18 times. I personally do not have the solution to the 4 or 5-iron carry over bunkers to a rock hard green. Once or twice, fine, but  browbeating golfers with the same shot 15 times (except for #11, 12 and 18) gets tiresome and aggravating.  The course is a chore to play.

Plus, it is obvious that the owner was wedded to more traditional American style pacing because the overall routing of the course is really confusing - nothing flows and nothing fits. I’ve been told they changed the sequence of holes several times and that is like going back and trying to save a bad movie with a recut.

For the most part, the fairways are flat runways between sculpted containment mounds until #17. Then all of a sudden it looks like they had an epiphany and installed these interesting humps and bumps in the landing area. Yeech, I cannot see how that golf course won Best New in 1992, because the GD guys I know have far better taste than that.

To make matters worse, there is actually a painting of Rees Jones above the clubhouse fireplace like he’s a modern Charles Blair Macdonald. . . . Neal and I nearly retched.

In contrast, NGLA still occupies its own category. Even after rewriting and editing thousands of words devoted to hole-by-hole analysis, there are still dozens of things that I had not noticed or was too dim to grasp.

We were fortunate to have the course all to ourselves for two afternoons after the Singles matches had cleared the course, and it was important for Neal to get a close look at everything with a sketch pad in his hand instead of a golf club. I think he found religion. I was able to shoot several rolls of B&W, the best of which will go on the wall of my office.

It was a treat to finally meet the famous Tom “TE” Paul - though a bit shocking. In contrast to Patrick Mucci, Tom strikes me as nothing like his posts. Somehow I expected a serious and measured man with a severe, no-nonsense demeanor. His posts are normally so comprehensive and crisp that to meet this thoroughly disarming man with a ready smile and ultra friendly face is a lesson in how silly it is to form a vision of someone before you meet them. His observations driving around the course with us were quite insightful. It is still impossible for me to believe he has only been interested in architecture for four years.

Karl Olson was enormously helpful and sat with us for several hours, explaining in detail what he had done over the years to restore the golf course as close as possible to 1929. He is considering restoration of the 8th tee to the left of #7 green to make the line of play closer to Macdonald’s intention.

Also, he discussed the possibility rebuilding a tee directly behind the 11th to set up the carry over the crossing bunkers. He is correct that to go all the way to the left would be a safety hazard with the 7th fairway, but directly behind the Double-Plateau might work. I took some photos of it from that angle and it looks tremendous. It has always been my impression that the hole doesn’t make sense with the tee all the way to the right.

Additionally, George (Bahto) is certain that the 12th green used to have a horseshoe type feature running through the middle. Whether Macdonald filled it in or not, he would know better than me.

Karl ended up joining us Monday morning for 9 holes before going to Bethpage, and to be honest, just the three of us out there on a perfect morning, absolutely alone beneath the windmill might be the best moment golf has to offer.

We wandered into the library afterwards, which everyone who loves this game ought to do once.

The problem with National Golf Links is that it always makes me feel so small and insignificant. Perhaps it is a hallucination, but I have always carried the arrogant belief that given the right piece of land I could design a Shinnecock Hills.

No chance at National though, zero. After all these years, I have still not fully absorbed all the lessons Macdonald left behind. And the difference between understanding great art like that and actually creating it is beyond my wildest dreams or comprehension.

So there I am in the library with his statue, like the ape standing before the monolith. I laid my hands on it hoping for some kind of spiritual epiphany . . . . I feel like an idiot when my eyes get moist every time I look at that statue.

Neal sometimes gently reminds me that golf courses are really just sculpted dirt with grass and sand over them . . . . I guess it comes down to whether you believe in ghosts.

George Bahto’s Stonebridge was next, and the next time I hear an architect say “If we built that today, everyone would hate it” needs to be dragged by the ear to see what this man has done.

We were flabbergasted. Several of the greens shocked us into silence. I guess when you get to a certain age and don’t care what anyone thinks, you design Stonebridge.

Even stuck with an odd routing and houses that encroach on the fairways, the green complexes are spectacular and beautifully conceived. There is an Alps, Cape, Redan, Principal’s Nose . . . . just so far beyond gutsy that he might be the only person in America with juevos big enough to do that.

I finally met Patrick Mucci next, who looks, talks, acts and sounds exactly as he writes. We closely examined some aerials and then played Garden City. My contrarian nature does not make it easy for  me to agree with somebody about everything, but in the case of Garden City, I do.

If that club was smart, he would be installed as dictator and Green Chairman for life. Patrick thinks very deeply about golf and articulates it in complete paragraphs. Ask a question and you will get a fully reasoned answer.

Once installed he could begin by fixing the 12th hole, the course of so much discussion here in the Treehouse. There is absolutely no reason why it ought not be restored exactly as it appeared. The aerials and photos are crystal clear. The only excuse would be a membership or architect lacking the courage to do it.

The guy in charge of restoration at garden City is no chicken, he was crazy enough to design a links course with back-to-back par 3's on #10 and #11 and only build two par fours on the whole back nine. . . . .right Tom?

I was also intrigued by Patrick’s idea of restoring the 7th fairway to the right side, moving the fairway out to the strip bunker now hidden in the weeds. The basic strategic arrangement of the hole would make more sense than it does now, especially if the cross bunker was put back exactly as Mr. Travis designed it.

There is also the matter of rough lines, which ought to be the subject of a thread by itself. We went through some modifications at Olympic, and the results are superb. It would not take anything but a mower to redraw the rough lines on the golf course to bring more bunkers into play - plus the 9th green could be re-extended to the back right side. The hump in the back follows all the way off the green to the right hand bunker so obviously, that it seems inconceivable it was not originally part of the green.

If everyone hates it, the grass will grow back. But if everyone loves it, it will be an improvement that costs nothing.

As for me, I am putting the clubs in the closet for a while. My trembling hands have finally got me so self-conscious I look like a Parkinson’s patient. Funny thing though, the flat stick is still pretty solid.

If nothing else, I have reached my lifelong ambition to write one post longer than Tom Paul.


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2001, 07:53:00 PM »
Bravo Gib!
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Wayne_Freedman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2001, 08:32:00 AM »
Fine, Gib...but how did you really feel?

John_Sheehan

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2001, 08:58:00 AM »
Gib-
Welcome home and thanks for the post. My keyboard is getting jammed up from drooling enviously at both your golf and social itineraries.

As soon as your palsy retreats, let's go play some golf.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2001, 06:08:00 AM »
Great post Gib.

All the writing & I only found one mistake:

quote:
I was able to shoot several rolls of B&W, the best of which will go on the wall of my office.

I think what you meant to say was:

quote:
I was able to shoot several rolls of B&W, most of which I will post on this site.

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2001, 06:20:00 AM »
Gib,

It was really nice to meet you.  I enjoyed our day from start to finish, and I'm glad you enjoyed Garden City.  It's hard to believe this unique, open, links like course sits in the middle of densely populated Long Island.

Now, if I could just putt like Gib, I could be a player.  He rolls the ball well.

I think our love for the game, and its architecture has brought many of us together to share thoughts, experiences, and a round or two (golf or bubbly), and I enjoyed my day with you, as I did with Ran, Mike, TEPaul and others previously.  

Gib, I appreciate your thoughts and support.

Tom MacWood,

I've learned that:

"Actions speak louder than words"  and....
"Talk is cheap"

I have a quote posted in my house and in my office.  It says, "I'd rather be hated for what I am, than loved for what I'm not"
Rarely, if ever, do I espouse a cause, but, actively work against it.

You have brought up a very sore point and I am bitterly disappointed, as everyone else
on this site should be.

All the talk on this site, by certain individuals, about OPPORTUNITY LOST, pales in the face of what is happening at GCGC.

Whoever said, "things, and people aren't always what they seem to be", knew what they were talking about.


Dick Stanley

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2001, 06:56:00 AM »
Interesting comments about Long Island golf, where is this Stonebridge course?

I must take exception with your comments on Maidstone as someone who has played it many times. You mention that you love the rustic appeal and quaint charm as do I, but that you have a problem with the greenkeepers apparent lack of direction. But isn't a less maintained look in keeping with the clubs quaint charm? Wouldn't a perfectly groomed and over-attention to detail drift from the style of the place? It also sounds like you played after a heavy rain, because when I've been there the bunkers are always looking quite beautiful and never muddy.

Also, you may not be aware, but Maidstone does not have a fairway irrigation system, which may explain some issues that bothered you?


TEPaul

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2001, 07:56:00 AM »
Tom MacW:

You asked Gib the question about Easthampton but I thought I would give you my impressions anyway.

The basic site at Easthampton is not very good. The topography is fine for Eastern LI but there are a number of little niggling annoyances about the course that were totally unavoidable for Coore & Crenshaw that make me respect them even more for taking the job and hanging in there with it.

The location is OK as it goes I guess but not that great for a place like Easthampton. The nines are split not just by a road but by a relatively busy intersection and it does feel peculiar to go across the intersection from where the clubhouse will be and start the round right next to the intersection. Hole #1's tee and the entire par 5 is close on one of the roads. Hole #2 is perfectly framed by an enormous radio tower or something! Hole #8 is a short drop shot par 3 (a really good green!) that I believe Ben said basically couldn't be done as is but they pulled it off. And #9 is again tight to one of the other roads. #9 is a most unusual little par 4 with a green that's hilarious and very cool. The green sits at a sideways angle to the approach and is slightly raised with some beautiful and efficient bunkering. It appears that you can do little more than approach this green sideways (at its shallow angle) because a treeline on the left of the entire hole prevents getting a drive into postion to come at it length-wise. The green is seven steps deep in the rear and twelve in the front (or I guess I should say the right and the left since you can't approach it length-wise)! With a gapping rugged bunker fronting this affair and a difficult one behind it makes this hole a potential little devil. The best we could do when playing it with SW approaches (with two of the pros) was a six!

The back nine is open and much more interesting to look at, I think, but even there they had and still have an ongoing property dispute with the landowner to the right of hole #12 and the last I heard the club was going to give him some land on #12 and change the hole as necessary. That's too bad as the hole is very unique and cool now. Many don't understand it, but I love it! I can tell you that Coore and Crenshaw are very good at knowing what to do with problematic fence lines and such.

C&C inherited the Easthampton routing that was done many years before by the property owner. The permitting and hassling in Easthampton is so severe that they never even thought of changing it. All in all, the site with its niggling problems can't be better than a 2-3, but the many of the holes are cool and of course the craftmanship, bunkering and interesting design details are great C&C stuff.

Oh yeah, there is a very aromatic waste plant to the western side of the front nine also. That was one of the times I was glad I smoke so much!

Even to date the township has not given the club permission to build a clubhouse and although Easthampton G.C does have a "memberhip in waiting" so to speak, those future or potential members at the present time are known as "guests". I even heard that the original land owners (the Bistrians) have now sold the club and the name of the club might even change. The club has dealt with political and beauractic flak for years and one of the most active and aggressive opponents was actor Alec Baldwin and his now estranged with Kim Bassinger, who I think live just down the road.

The whole evolution of Easthampton golf club is a little odd and it was peculiar fate that C&C did it at all. Apparently they were scheduled, out there and ready to go on Friar's Head and that project got pushed back. So the Easthampton G.C. land owner called them up and said something to this effect: "We have this land for a golf course and it probably isn't very good but we've always wanted to build a little course here although we don't know much about how do to that--will you PLEASE help us?" Apparently C&C were very touched by that and said: "Awww, sure we will help!"

Gib, I think the hole you mentioned at Easthampton with the big center swale in the green is #16, not #17. #17 is the highly unusual (get in the good player's head) short par 5 with the raised shrunken narrow green!!

I'm not familiar with the history of #12 green at NGLA but as far as I'm concerned there is a horseshoe feature in that green and the green very much plays as if there is. It might not be all that pronounced but if it was more so the green would probably be almost unplayable. You have to see it in person to know what I'm talking about. As the green plays now it's one of the harder ones on the course to approach and putt. It sort of falls off front, right and left and the middle back pin placement is very dangerous to get to on the approach. There is a sharp drop down into a rear bunker behind the green and the road behind. A ball at the back middle of that green can go over real easily! Every caddy I've had recommended not really trying to get an approach back there but to try to get the ball to the middle left of the green and putt from there. They had the pin one day in what I consider the horsehoe on #12 and I got the ball into it and real close and missed the birdie. Nevertheless it was one of the most satisfying shots I hit in the tournament. I wasn't even trying to get the ball in there and actually got the ball to the right of the pin which is even  more dangerous.


Neal_Meagher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #8 on: June 28, 2001, 08:22:00 PM »
Tom MacWood:

The short answer to your question of who is Neal Meagher? is that he is the luckiest guy on the planet.  The long answer is a direct tribute to the existence of this discussion group and the participation of some of the most well-read, intelligent and passionate devotees of golf design anywhere.

After nearly a dozen years designing golf courses for a California-based firm that is near and dear to Mr. Naccarato, the time came to move along in late 1999.  I won't even try to defend or address many of the supposed or real faults of my former employer's except to say that my years there formed a very solid framework with which I am equipped to pursue golf course architecture into the future.  Additionally, as a young person looking to hone his design skills, one would be hard-pressed to know two finer individuals.

With the freedom that comes with being on one's own, I began what I had hoped would be a period of re-exploration for me to find a higher plane of excitement and knowledge of golf course design.  What a serendipitous discovery it was, then, to find GolfClubAtlas.  Quite simply the level of discussion here has opened my eyes to a realm of thinking that sometimes is lost in the day-to-day world of actually doing golf course design.  Then the really unexpected happened when I met The Mr. Papazian.

Playing golf with Gib and also with others on this site including Joel Stewart and John Bernhardt and having recently met Mike Rewinsky and Tom Paul, shows what a wonderful community the world of golf still really is.  What it comes down to is that we all have much to learn from each other in every conceivable way. ASGCA or not ASGCA.

So, I now can peer into the minds of those for whom I design, which is a really good thing.  Also, I can't honestly say how many other golf course architects lurk on this site, but I will say that those who do are doing themselves a great favor.  Real growth is sometimes a painful retrospective of one's own skills and this forum truly pulls no punches in that regard.  

Simply put, to Ran and John I offer you a heart-felt thank you.

The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

aclayman

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #9 on: June 28, 2001, 08:23:00 PM »
I reiterate what rednaman has said that that piece was great fun to read.

I couldn't help but notice a couple of things: I was grateful there was no chance of an editor (other than yourself). I have been on this site for awhile now, and that was the first time I got to read Gib, Do his Gib thang.

I recently tried to post a recap of a trip and found it extremely dificult and sensed that Gib could have gone on and on about more of everything.

The bit about the windmill and bethpage being the quintsential golf moment, feeling, is something I  get in touch with quite frequently and I find that that feeling , can, and is, found everyday, probably on every course.

But not everyone has the frequency to tune in to it.  


George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #10 on: June 28, 2001, 02:12:00 PM »
Tom MacWood: Perhaps I could answer a few of those questions.

How would you compare Westhampton to the other Raynor courses you have played? When and what did Silva do at Westhampton?


you asked: Are they not restoring the 12th at GCGC? and the original doughnut that was once there ....

I just uncovered that in some old material I had -no one had a hint of this (I always wondered about that green). I doubt if this will EVER be done. It would be too controversial - I never had a chance to tell Karl Olson about this yet.

You also asked: Did Macdonald ever loose his appetite for some of his steriotypical features, like the horseshoe?

No it went on and on in variations all the way thru Charlie Banks' work and I even think that some of Banks' horseshoe features were more interesting and complex. The problem is that many of have a clue or were into "making the greens easier" (yikes!).  At one great course (one of Raynor's very best, the quote was "I removed the mounds in the ??nd green to make for more accurate putting"  .... this was told to me. Incredible!

Brian Silva's work at Westhampton was done years ago and consisted mainly of putting high mounding beween holes 1 & 18 and 2 and 17 - the holes are parallel and there was a safety issue

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #11 on: June 28, 2001, 04:10:00 PM »
Dick Stanley,

Why does there have to be a quantum leap from a poorly or mediocre maintained golf course, to a perfectly maintained golf course

It has been my limited observation that Maidstone could be better conditioned, resulting in better playing conditions.  

I don't think it is chic to have fairways that only cows and goats could love.  
I would think fast and firm fairways would be desired on a seaside course with substantial wind, rather than a shag carpet approach.

But, that's just my opinion.

George Bahto,

I believe the horseshoe contour in the 12th green, was the 12th green at NGLA, not GCGC.

Do you think this feature mirrored the horseshoe features in the 7th green, 4th nine at Montclair, or at one of the greens at Forsgate ????


Craig_Rokke

  • Karma: +0/-0
Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2001, 04:59:00 PM »
Gib,

Please let me know when your columns become syndicated on the East coast. I thoroughly enjoy your writing. Thanks for the tour.

A painting of Rees Jones over the clubhouse fireplace! Ugh.


Patrick_Mucci

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2001, 05:06:00 PM »
Gib,

Sometimes, "Pride of Authorship" gets in the way.


Ran Morrissett

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Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2001, 06:19:00 PM »
Gib,

What were your favorite holes at Westhampton? Why do you call its Redan only "decent" - what did you find lacking about it?

What impresses you the most about the design of Garden City? How many Eden holes have you played better than the one at Garden City?

Cheers,


George_Bahto

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Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2001, 07:03:00 PM »
Patrick thanks for the correction - it was 12 NGLA I was addressing
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2001, 07:03:00 PM »
Patrick thanks for the correction - it was 12 NGLA I was addressing
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Charles_P.

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2001, 11:18:00 AM »
Gib-

In many of your comments about Maidstone, I'd have to agree.  But, to a certain extent, you must remember it is first and foremost a family club.  Between the beach club facilities (that's alot of cabanas), the tennis courts (grass!), and the golf course, there's alot to maintain.  Maidstone spends about half as much on golf course maintenance as its cousins Shinnecock and NGL do.  Many people would like to see more money devoted to the course (which few wouldn't argue is world-class), but for every hard-core golfer there's a tennis player who doesn't care and doesn't want to see the dues raised.  The club could always have different memberships for different activities, and divert the funds appropriately, but that would take away much of its charm and appeal as a club with a casual atmosphere.

Regarding the bunkers, I seem to recall it absolutely poured on many days in the last two weeks -- is that affecting their condition?  Many of the holes inland from Hook Pond suffer from poor drainage and the bunkers take a dry spell to come back.

That said, your comments about mowing and rough lines are spot-on -- it wouldn't take any money to improve some of the lines.

Patrick-

You don't find Maidstone's fairways firm and fast?  Given the lack of fairway irrigation, it all depends on how much rain there is, but it absolutely is screaming from July-August most years.

That said, the green irrigation means that the fronts of the greens are sometimes softer than they should be, which makes it harder to play the ground game -- which the course absolutely demands, given the open greens and often windy conditions.


TEPaul

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2001, 03:16:00 PM »
Charles P:

Your comments about Maidstone are dead on accurate, well thought out and well stated. Maidstone is a CLUB that has a ton of things going on other than golf!

I was staying in a house in Easthampton last weekend and came upon a book about The Maidstone's history from 1898-1941. The book on The Maidstone reviewed everything the club has to offer and still is involved in. To my amazement golf and the golf course was no more than about 15-25% of the interest and activities of the club. And they weren't then and aren't now oblivious to what they have as a golf course!!

They seem to like the golf course the way it was and is. They have no irrigation system "through the green" and probably never will. The lies on the fairways are by no means pristine and they really don't need to be. The fairways lies are like golf the way it used to be-they're seasonal! When it doesn't rain they are hard and fast and the lies are just fine although not technically perfect (we all ought to learn to hit shots off of lies like this and not be so Goddamn spoilt and demanding of perfection)!

Charles's remarks about the fairway lines are accurate and the club should pay attention to that and improve it without much worry to cost or other things in the interest of the basic architecture and some of the playable angles of the holes (like #2 & #11!). Some of the bunkers have gotten too grassed in through evolution and could use some work but that is just the way the Maidstone is--it doesn't have a huge effect on the playability and enjoyment of Maidstone.

The deal at Maidstone is the course is sort of old fashioned in design, maintenance, look, feel and playability and the bottom line is it's just fine the way it is. The wind or lack of it is the main deal anyway and the course can play super varietal, easy or super challenging basically depending on the wind and the extent of it.

I will promise you that The Maidstone isn't hurting for money to improve their course if they felt like it no matter how much they have going on otherwise at the club.

The way the course is today is old-fashioned and quite different from the vast majority of American golf courses! Sure they could do a few things--but if they don't that too would be just fine with me.


Patrick_Mucci

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2001, 05:49:00 PM »
Charles P.,

Too many times, the fairways have been overly long. creating flyers, and conditions contrary to what we envision for a seaside course.

Now I love Maidstone, but, like Shinnecock a few years back, I think I would take better care of it.


TEPaul

Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2001, 02:24:00 PM »
I'd never met Neal Meagher before and I don't know any of his work, but it was great to go around NGLA with him (and Gib) and see him react to the course. He was impressed, to say the least--equally enthralled, amazed and ecstatic about the architecture and what he was seeing.

Any architect who reacts that way to NGLA is AOK in my book!


Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2004, 12:52:22 PM »
Breaking my weekday moratorium on posting just to bump this to the top.  Neal and Gib are most assuredly one of golf's great odd couples - each a delightful gentleman who needs to post more frequently.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2004, 01:23:01 PM »
Thanks for bringing up this enjoyable read, Mike. It's always kind of funny to read a thread, not remember it and see that you posted on it. Whatever happened to those photos, anyway? :)

For the record, most of the folks on this site are nothing like their online personas - big tough meanies onsite, pussycats in person. ;D Still opinionated in both instances, however.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2004, 01:23:53 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Neal_Meagher

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Re:Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2004, 01:34:56 PM »
Mike,

How amazingly odd that you brought this up today, as just last evening, honestly, I was paging back, way back, through very old posts when I came upon this one myself.

I had forgotten what an entertainining but well-conceived treatise it was by Gib on what was truly a Felix and Oscar week.  The courses we played, the wine that was drunk and the food that was eaten now over three years past, bring up the kind of memories that golf is so good at providing.  And I agree with you that it would be a good thing if Gib could post more.  One may not always agree with everything he has to say but one can't deny that it comes from the heart.  I think the time is nigh when the body of his written works are substantial enough to fill a Herb Wind/Peter Dobereiner style book.

The purpose of art is to delight us; certain men and women (no smarter than you or I) whose art can delight us have been given dispensation from going out and fetching water and carrying wood. It's no more elaborate than that. - David Mamet

www.nealmeaghergolf.com

Dan Kelly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Neal and Gib's Excellent Adventure
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2004, 01:47:03 PM »
Hey! Wait just a minute!

I'm the one who retrieved this thread, from the back pages of gca.com, a week ago -- when someone suggested a Top 25 Threads section.

And now my post has disappeared!

Something fishy here.

Now I know how C. B. Macdonald must have felt, after he routed Merion.
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