Yardage Markers

[David_Graves]

San Francisco GC has no yardage markers. What other clubs have none? How did yardage markers become such a prevalent part of golf?

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,

Pine Valley.

Jack Nicklaus

[David_Graves]

Patrick,
Well answered. Any other courses?

[YTTseng]

The Valley Club of Montecito does not have yardage markers.  However, it has a yardage book that you can buy.

What's wrong with yardage markers?  Tiger Woods never plays a course where he is forced to guess about the yardage.

[George Pazin]

Do they have yardage markers on most courses in the UK? On newer courses? The old classics?

[aclayman]

Not a one at Cypress Point, either.

[moth]

Aclayman,

I am pretty sure there are yardages (sprinkler head) markers at Cypress.

[Brian Walshe]

David,

Royal Melbourne doesn't have any yardage markers and I think the whole yardage deal started with Deane Beman.  From memory Nicklaus saw him doing it at the 61 Amateur (?) and picked it up from there.

[John_Conley]

When I started caddying in the early 80s it was unheard of to have plates in the fairway at odd distances.  The public course in my town had a 150 brick and bushes on each side of the fairway.  The private club put labels on the sprinkler heads in the late 80s.

I think they became prevalent when laser technology became easy to use to get a number from anywhere instead of relying on a wheel or pacing, both of which would be very hard to do in a reasonable period of time and over undulating terrain.

[JamieS]

Pine Valley and Merion do not have yardages on the sprinkler heads, but they do have corresponding yardage books that tell you what each yardage is.
On second thought...what is so wrong with posting and knowing the correct yardage. I can see where people have a problem with the outdated "150 bush", but a yardage on a sprinkler head is unobtrusive, and it speeds up play.

[JamieS]

Just an update to my previous post...
Places like Pine Valley and Merion have excellent caddie programs where walking is a must, so the need for yardages posted on the course is not as necessary.
With alot of the newer courses...
1. You must ride
2. Cart paths only
I can't stand either of these edicts, but posting the yardages is a must on these type of courses; you would spend all day walking from your cart to the ball and back again, all because you don't have the proper club.

[Johnny B]

An amusing yardage tale from Ireland.
We started making our own yardage charts on some courses in Ireland for matches - it was started interestingly by someone who had been college golfing in USA. We had a yardage chart for Royal Co Down (which is never all that useful).  Several years later I had occasion to play a match at Co Downand referred to old chart - only to find that the yardage for the 5th hole stated "155 yards from green patch in middle of fairway". When I stopped laughing - this time the whole fairway was green (original yardages taken in a drought) I then just got on with it and played the course.
Yardages are becoming standard in UK and many like myself have a love hate relationship with them. I do not really like them but when they are there I find them useful. However I have observed some very anti yardage markers of any sort golfers eagerly referring to their strokesaver yardage charts.  You just can't win.

[Dan King]

At one time judging yardage was considered a skill in golf, a skill the golfer developed over time. But since golf is now only about the shots, golfers need yardage before they make any shot on the course. I think it is only a matter of time before golfers will be looking to have exact footage before they will putt.

Where did this whole myth about yardage speeding up the game start? I know that courses are covered with more and more yardage over the years and the game has constantly gotten slower. Correlation? Who knows, but there is no way anyone can make a case for yardage speeding up the game.

There is even a thread about 3½ rounds being a fast round. When did that happen? A foursome that would take 3½ to play 18 holes would have been the slowpokes on the course and would constantly have to step aside for the faster groups to let them play through.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:"By the time you get dressed, drive out there, play 18 holes and come home, you've blown seven hours. There are better things you can do with your time."
--Richard M. Nixon

[Paul Perrella]

 Dan,

 I've gotten in the habit over the years of determining what my yardage is as I walk up to my ball. I then confirm, without delay, using the available resources. It seems that I've become fairly good at just looking at what I have left to the pin and calculating a number.
 I must note that the shorter flagsticks across the pond do make it much more difficult.
 It has been my experience over the years that MANY(MOST) golfers spend more time on yardages than their skill level would justify. Certainly the average golfer, on their home course, should be able to shoot a fairly consistent number just eyeballing the distance left to the pin.
 IMO  Paul

[John_Sheehan]

Brett Mogg-
The only time I played Cypress I did not even notice the lack of any yardage markers till I got the third hole, the first par 3, when my nerves had settled to a crazed twitch. When I asked my caddie, he told me there were no yardage markers anywhere on the course.  He then paused, winked, and said, "Job Security."

[moth]

John,

I could of sworn there was markers. Then again the whole thing was a blur and I did have a caddy that knew my shank/push hook by the 3rd hole.

Brett

[Bob_Huntley]

Cypress has no yardage markers.

It wasn't Beman but Gene Andrews that started the yardage craze, see an interesting article below.
http://www.nectargolf.com/founder.htm

[JamieS]

Dan...
I must disagree with you that yardage markers don't speed up play. How long would Joe Average golfer spend asking his buddies how far they thought he was from the green, only to then have them disagree and start the process all over again. Give me the yardage, give me the club and lets get on with it!
I think the slow play has evolved from normal golfers treating each round like it is the last of the US Open. Reading putts from all angles, etc...just like they see on TV.
That(Slow PLay) is a thread for another day, and the day after that, and the day...
On that note...I think it is easier to play a quick round of golf on the older classic courses that were designed with walking in mind: Finish putting, walk a few yards and tee it up on the next. Not finish putting read a sign on how to get to the next hole, then drive or walk the 1/10ths of a mile it takes to get there.

[Dan King]

JamieS writes:
I must disagree with you that yardage markers don't speed up play

Based on what?  

So far we have bought into the whole yardage speeds up play, carts speed up play, GPS speeds up play, range finders speed up play, super-balls speed up play, spring effect speeds up play, seems everything someone is trying to sell now speeds up play.

Guess what, gullible ain't in the dictionary.

Yardage all over the course  has resulted in a bunch of golfers working hard to get information none of them need. So now the answer is to cover the course with more yardage to make it easier for golfers to find numbers they don't need. The answer after this is going to be supplying all golfers with range finders so they won't have to actually do any pacing, thereby supposedly speeding up play. And we call that progress.

Golf before yardage:
1) Hit the ball
2) find the ball
3) hit it again.

Golf after yarage:
1) Hit the ball
2) find the ball
3) decide who is away
4) once it is determined you are away calculate the exact yardage
5) figure out which club will get you that exact yardage, taking exact wind speed into account
6) take six practice swings to make sure you have the club for that exact yardage and weather
7) If the weather has changed in the time it has taken you to pull the trigger, start over at step 4.  If the weather hasn't changed go on to step 8.
hit the ball again.

Which is faster?

If courses are designed without walkers in mind, they aren't golf courses. They are designed for cart-ball and are inmaterial to the discussion on golf courses.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:"If four players are ranged in line across a wide fairway there in no earthly reason why each of them should not be calculating the shot, selecting a club and taking up a stance more or less simultaneously. The setting up of a golf shot can be as ponderous as the loading of a Roman siege catapult, with interminable adjustments to range and aim before finally the carcass of a dead horse is hoisted into the middle launcher. Lobbing four dead horses over the parapet takes an age, which is how it works in golf if three crews of loaders and launchers sit down and watch while the fourth goes into action."
 --Peter Dobereiner

[JamieS]

Dan...
Golfers these days are going to do #'s 1-8 whether or not they have the correct yardage, or any yardage at all.
I agree that all the GPS stuff is a bit over the top, and we all know that carts don't speed up play, and that new equipment only allows players to hit it farther into the trees, so that doesn't speed up play.
In the grand scheme of things, yardages don't have that big effect on the speed of play, I just think they help a bit.
Also, on a bad note, there are alot more courses being constructed that seem geared more toward carts rather than walkers. You can't just discount the fact that most golfers don't have access to the classic courses where walking is encouraged, they are left with the rest of the barrell...mandatory carts til' sometime PM, high greens fees and the mindset that they are going to get there $$$'s worth no matter if it takes 3 hours or 5. Again, everyone that contributes to this site could debate the slow play problem until they were blue in the face.

QUOTE:  "WHILE WE'RE YOUNG!!"
         --Al Czervik              

[Dan King]

JamieS writes:
You can't just discount the fact that most golfers don't have access to the classic courses where walking is encouraged

Sure I can.

Like I said, cart-ball should never be confused with golf. Golfers have a choice, they can play golf or they can play cart-ball. Many are choosing cart-ball and therefore, developers and architects are building cart-ball courses. But there is the choice. There are still golf courses being built. If more golfers would choose golf, then developers and architects would build more golf courses.

Where are these areas where golfers have no choice but to play cart-ball?

I also don't understand your position that GPS speeding up play is bulls&#t while yardage on sprinkler heads isn't? It seems like GPS is just refinement of what you already approve.

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:"If you're a traditionalist who despises cellular phones on the golf course, you're going to abhor the latest threat posed by insidious inventions such as Palm Pilots, BlackBerrys, Visors and their ilk."
--John Gordon (National Post)

[JamieS]

I agree with you 100% that if more players chose golf courses, we could eliminate most of the problem. I live in S. Jersey outside of Philly, and up until a few years ago, you either belonged to a country club or you played the lousy collection of public golf our area had to offer. During the last couple of years, there has been an explosion of "high end" public courses built, and only in the last year have some opened up that actually encourage walking.(Twisted Dune being one.)
Cart Ball has been forced upon many a country club in my area. I hate the fact that at my club I am forced to ride any day of the week until 2 or 3 PM.
As for GPS systems...I've only played two courses with GPS systems, each time, I had to endure a video flyby of the hole and then some "professional" telling you how the hole is supposed to be played. I'd rather skip the theatrics which wastes time and just get the proper yardage. Granted...once you're in the fairway, rough, etc. it is a quick way to get the info.
I suppose we can discount what we like...I think the basic discrepancy is that there are now many types of courses each with a different agenda: private classic & modern, upscale public/private for the day, and good ole' basic public. Yes, we have a choice of where to play... but it seems no matter where I go, I play behind the same group. I swear they are the same...I know there is a costume box in the trunk with the rest of the golf gear. Sorry, didn't mean to get off on a rant...Thanks for the banter. By the way, the quotes are great!
Jamie

Quote: "Wellllll.....we're waiting!"
      --Judge Smales

[Paul Perrella]

 Our group was playing a resort course in Florida with mandatory carts. Riding down the first fairway my brother stated that as long as this GPS was provided we may as well use it. Although it took him a few minutes of tweaking to get the exact yardages we knew all was well when an attendant delivered the hamburgers he had ordered by mistake.

[David_Graves]

Paul,
How were the hamburgers?

[Mark_Fine]

How many of you have played a golf course, particularly one you're not too familar with and never looked at a yardage, even for nine holes or just a few shots?   I've done it from time to time just for fun.  Try it some time.  You find it's more an eye test than anything else.  

I am not a big fan of having yardage markers all over the place.  Simple and subtle ones are fine.  With courses with caddies, they are generally not needed.  

100 years ago there might not have been "official markers" on the courses but I can assure you golfers knew their yardages probably as well as we do today.