Donald Ross restoration project

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sri Bunga Shamba Lamba Ding Dong Scoobie Scoobie Doo,

TE Paul ios correct in my admiration of your golf course. So much so that I made him, Bill V. and Mike Cirba take me there last year in my trip to the far east.

Impressed? Yes, totally so, and I too am very supportive in Ron Forse's work in restoring this gem. I thought I knew quirk, but never would I have suspected a little club in the North Hills of Philly to teach me even more, especially at #8 which happens to be one of my favorite holes in the game (But then again there are so many of them!)

I will never forget TE Paul's words to me when we approached the 8th tee on that humid day, "I think you are really going to like this one..." and I have to say that if there was one paticular hole that i was most blown away by on that trip that featured Pine Valley, Merion, Plainfield, Lehigh, Inniscrone, Stonewall, and Gulph Mills with side bar trips to Philly CC, Overbrook and Aronomink....LuLu was the place!

You can also thank Geoff Shackelford and Eric Shortz for "pushing" me there!

Trees? I say cut the majority of them down like they were in those photos from 1924! I was also totally smitten with the fairway at #17.  DO NOT touch #4, it is perfect! I say bring back the bunkering between holes 1 and 7 and lets get this place back in the shape it was meant to be in!

Ron Forse or Jim Nagle, if you happen to be reading this, GO! GO! GO!

[TEPaul]

Brad:

I agree with everything you say just above about agronomy. You and I are going in the exact same direction on this subject! Our paths may be a little different but we are going to the same destination.

One could make the case validly that a good restoration without the agronomy that goes with it (I call it the "maintenance meld") is a useless project. Without the proper agronomy (firm and fast) the "design" restoration could be like a work of art without the lights (agronomy) to show it off. It could look good and just not function for the type of golf that it calls for.

Come on down here and play Gulph Mills, I'll take you to see Aronomink, Torresdale and LuLu. You can't be a compleat Ross expert without seeing LuLu--it is some wonderful very early Ross! Things have changed a lot I think but not enough not to get the course back with a good restoration. The tree situation has to be tricky business though since the course is tight as could be but they could do some great internal work on a restoration project.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

BY, Until you come clean, everything you post bears no consequence or credibility. It is nothing more then hot air.

You further your cause of insulting a good and decent man in Ron Forse who is striving to do the best work he can in the hardest market imaginable and then further insult Brad Klein with more of your spineless remarks on credibility. Why don't you look in the mirror!

Until you come clean, I cannot and will not offer you any respect. I wouldn't have been this way IF you hadn't attacked others under this guise of yours. I would have continued to respect your anonymity. I don't think that there is a single person who particpates here that doesn't feel the same.

Come clean so I can at least respect your opinion, however it may differ from mine.

[TEPaul]

Ron Forse! Beautiful! Excuse me for not including him in the list of architects above that could do a great restoration job on LuLu.

[TEPaul]

BY:

OOOps, TommyN isn't going to give you any respect until you come clean. Getting no respect from TommyN might not be what you think.

I suggest you go down to Blockbuster and rent the Godfather #1. Fast forward to that scence in the Don's office during the marriage of his daughter and run that back and forth a few times.

If you give me a "dead drop" address I'll send you a box of kleenexes so you can keep your rearview mirror smudgeless.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul and Brad Klein,

I see things a little differently than both of you.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but, I think you're slightly out of focus.

In my limited experience in dealing with members on Major projects ( golf course, club house, Maintainance facilities, etc., etc..) MONEY, $$$$$$$$$$ and the dynamic of the membership tends to be the overriding factors.

Many naysayers will couch their objection at diverse issues, when the hidden or camoflaged issue is money.  How the club has handled Major projects in the past, sometimes determines the outcome of the current project.

Some Memberships accept the ongoing burden of funding various projects, but first they must vent, then they pull together and vote affirmatively.

Each club and membership is different.  

I think you have to evaluate your club's history, see where a project went well and where a project went poorly.  Learn from both victory and defeat, and, understanding the history of your membership, together with having a clear view of the current
"will of the membership" make your approach, plans and presentation accordingly.  But,
don't ever forget the importance of the money issues.

Lastly, I agree with working on the silent majority.  I also believe in "divide and conquer" , and in those areas, education, lobbying, cajoling, bribery and blackmailing should help steer this project to a successful conclusion.

Good Luck.

[Mike_Cirba]

I have to weigh in on Lulu...

What a charming, intelligently designed course!  I think there are a lot of really good and optimistic signs in the things I am seeing out there.

First of all, I find it heartening to read that SriBunga's younger members are the ones spearheading this restoration effort.  I think back to the GCA meeting at Yale a few weeks ago, where I somehow expected to be one of the younger persons at the event at age 42.  Instead, I felt I should have been playing the senior tees!  

Somehow, it seems that the generation of golfers in their 20s and 30s have caught onto this whole "Preservation Movement" bigtime!  Guys like Paul Turner, Noel Freeman, Andy Ryan, and many others have somehow been able to learn very quickly the tenets of classic design and have become advocates within clubs and at large.  That's wonderful stuff.  Makes me wonder why it took me so long to catch on!

I'm also seeing this movement catch a stronger foothold.  This month's issue of Philadelphia Golfer contains yet another article on a classic course being restored (Concord CC, which lots of people believe is a Ross course, but hasn't YET been proven) is the next in line, with the work being done by Ron Forse.

In the article, "Present renovations take Concord Country Club back to the past", I quote the following;

"In 1999 the membership began discussing another major renovation.  The plan was to restore the original design as much as possible by widening fairways, enlarging greens, building new tees, and modifying bunker complexes....His plan left no hole untouched.  Twelve of the 18 greens have been enlarged, in some cases by as much as 25%.  At the same time work is being done on all 18 tees....Landing areas are being expanded, in some cases by widening the fairways, in others by simply cutting down old trees."

I believe that classic course restoration and preservation is simply a wonderful idea whose time has come.

SriBunga...being in the Philadelphia area, I would look to the various resources at your disposal at other local clubs who have undertaken successful restoration efforts.  Tom Paul is an extremely knowledgable resource, who has faced many of the same issues you are dealing with, and the recent efforts at Aronomink have been widely hailed.  

If someone at your club feels that Lulu is not up to the design level of the sort of courses I'm mentioning, and therefore somehow not worthy of the time and money a restoration effort entails, then let them bring that paltry argument out to the light of day.  Your simple answer to that obviously short-sighted view is, "no, not right now it isn't, but it could be.  That's the reason we are proposing making the work of Donald Ross shine here, instead of hidden in the shadows of the trees".  

Best of luck!

[Patrick_Mucci]

By,

I have seen some of Ron Forse's restoration work, and I think it was terrific, and well received by the membership and critics alike.

I've known some great shapers, great dozermen, but without the vision, or architectual direction of the architect I certainly wouldn't rely on them for my final architectual presentation.

In one case, a shaper who previously worked for an architect was brought in on a project.
The shaper stated that, having worked for the architect for many years, he understood the design concepts and intent of the architect.  The architect told him what he wanted and departed.  When the architect returned for a visit, he was shocked to see the work performed by the shaper.  
The work had to be totally redone costing a great deal of time and money to be lost.  

I think a good architect and good shaper make for the best combination.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Well said Mike Cirba!

Perhaps maybe someone of your talent and passion can spearhead a restoration movement at a course called Merion Golf Club in Ardmore, PA.

[Lou_Duran]

Great debate on Mr. Raya's request for information.  I suspect that the best approach for him to take is largely a function of his course's pedigree, the type of ownership, and the makeup of the members.

Prior to Jeff Brauer building 15 new grees at my home course, Great Southwest GC, the owner (a Dallas real estate developer)surveyed the members.  Among other things, the membership was asked to rank a list of improvements to the golf course.  While our bent grass grees suffered greatly every summer, and a USGA consultant reported that they contained a dozen+ grass and weed types, the overall membership's number 1 priority was new concrete cart paths to replace the asphalt surfaces which were deemed unsightly.

I am afraid that for many clubs, Brad K. may be right.  Our interest in design, strategy and shot values is not widely shared.  But talk about wall to wall, carpet-like turf, and you get considerable interest.

There are probably numerous courses where "educating" the members is possible.  Hopefully, this thread's author belongs to one of them and he will find the advice of Mr. Paul and others useful.  I hope that he will keeps informed on his progress.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tommy;

And then perhaps the Blue Fairy can turn me into Tiger Woods?  Let's deal in the realm of the possible, man!  

SriBunga;

Incidentally, I concur with Tommy's passion for the 8th hole at Lulu.  If anyone there ever complains about the blind second shot,and suggests changing it, please come here where we will provide enough passionate arguments about that hole to thwart any misguided offense.  

Your 4th hole will forever in my mind be the hole where I saw the most unlikely par of my life.  Our own Tommy was the culprit.

For those unfamiliar with Lulu, the 4th is a par three of slightly over 100 yards, playing from an elevated tee to a green that sits on the edge of a quarry cliff, dropping some 30-40 feet below in ragged debris.  Tommy caught his tee shot heavy, and the ball bounded off the cliff face, settling far below in thick weeds.  

Somehow summoning herculean strength and inspiration from his trips to the Auld Sod, one could almost feel the winds of Dornoch as he swung mightily.  

The ball rose abruptly and nearly vertically, extricated from its caged lie, and just reached the top of the cliff, finally perching exhausted on the front of the green.

A routine 40 foot putt slammed into the back of the hole, as Tommy exhulted appropriately.  Somewhere, Donald Ross was shaking his head in disbelief.

[Sri Bunga Raya]

Sorry for the inconsistency in the name – first posting had a typo.

Sri Bunga Raya is the correct spelling and it translates to "house of hibiscus flower" form Malay (as in the Malaysian language).  I know I’m leaving myself open for debate as to why I would identify myself with the hibiscus flower, so I’ll end it here -- it is the name my wife has given to our house (she is from Malaysia).

I’m surprised so many people here seam to be familiar with Lu Lu.  Given the number of outstanding courses in the area, I figured Lu Lu would not be known (except perhaps by TEPaul).  

Thanks again for your helpful comments and I will certainly keep you up to date on the project.

[Sri Bunga Raya]

Tommy:

Nice up and down -- you’ll have to show me how to execute the shot form the bottom of the quarry!

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Sri,
Showing you that shot will not be a problem, as next time I'm in town, I intend to drop by Lu Lu and get a shot of the 8th. (I didn't bring my camera that day, and that will go down as one of the bigger mistakes in my life!)(I'll blame it on the humidity!)

Mike, I may no longer have that shot in my bag as I have taken the Callaway Hickory Stick out of my arsenal to show my protest of the ERC II.

Sri, one small question. Your initials wouldn't happen to be MNS would it? to some up with a psuedo like that has to come from a man of creativity and considering your in Philly, and the extraction of that name.......

Call me curious if you will! (You wouldn't happen to be wearing the color red either would you?)

tommy_n@earthlink.net

[BY]

Tommy, Tom, Pat....

Whoa! I didn't slam Ron or his work! I said his involvement at Salem was less then you may think, AND that a great contractor did the work there. They also did the clean-up work over the past few months.

I've seen Ron's work and it is very good. He also worked with Deemer at Lake Sunapee and Newport. Perhaps a great team in the making.

There is nothing better then to team with a great contractor. It is a team effort.

BY

[TEPaul]

BY:

Forgetaboutit! Just understand that you owe Naccarato a debt! He might not call in that debt now-he might not call in that debt later--he may never call in that debt! Just understand that you owe him that debt until he asks you to perform a favor or cancels that debt! This respect thing is very serious business.

[Mike_Cirba]

And BY...

I have this strange hunch that the favor might involve updating the anti-virus software on Tommy's computer as well as filling in that ghastly, unsightly, unnatural bunker that is probably being dug on his lawn as we speak.  

[Brad Klein]

I've seen Ron Forse's restoration work at Salem and Lake Sunapee up close and over time. As good as it is, none of it would have been done without the owner (Doug Holman at Lake Sunapee) or at Salem, the superintendent, Kip Tyler. To his credit, Forse doesn't shy away from working with others, including shapers. If BY is dumb enough to mistake this for not showing up, that's his problem, not mine.

Pat, I've been involved educating members at over two dozen courses, and they run the gamut from top-20 courses to top-500. No one ever raised the issue of money until they saw what needed to be done and then asked for priorites. Any competent architect can establish Phase 1 and Phase 2 priorities. That's their job.

Most of the importanr work can actually be done in house and relatively cheaply - tree removal, greens expansion, squaring tees, bunker reconstruction (okay, you need a shaper for that). It starts getting expensive once you add cart paths, new greens and tees, drainage, irrigation, etc. But you would be amazed how much good can be done in house for $400,000 over a two-year period.

My suggestion is to determine what you need, cost it out, then figure what and when you can afford what. Many clubs made horrendous decisions by not including financial planning as part of a master planning - it's just as important as bunker planning and maintenance. But I still find that folks don't ask that up front - and shouldn't. Most justs want to improve their golf course and learn what it will take. If people are really interested in saving money, I always suggest they don't spend it at all. But if they want to invest their money wisely, then there's a prudent way. But it's not the first set of questions you get in the process, though it does inevitably come along later.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Brad Klein,

I did preface my remarks by indicating I was referencing Major Projects, not fine tuning or minor work.

I would agree that worthwhile projects costing under $ 400,000. spaced over a few years can be accepted and digested conceptually and financially by most memberships.

But, when projects run in the Millions of dollars, they receive heightened scrutiny, and though many members may not initially mention money, that's the hidden agenda.

Westhampton Country Club is involved in a MAJOR rebuilding of their club house.  
To indicate how controversial the money issue is, the NEW YORK POST ran a two page story on the project, all revolving around money and power.

Had they been redecorating the dining room for $ 250,000 it probably would have been a minor issue, but, assessing each member about $ 1,750 for ten years, gets everyones attention.  Since this was reported in the
NEW YORK POST, it is public and common information.

You may recall I intitially asked SRI the scope of the project from a conceptual and financial perspective.  I asked if it was a little tweaking or a massive restoration ?
I've been involved in both, many times, and they have to be approached differently.

[BY]

Brad, Huh?
Who said he shyed away from working with shapers etc? You're twisting my words.

I said he worked with a great crew and wasn't as involved with Salem as you think, and I stand by it.

Since you are so in the know, the owner of Lake Sunapee is Doug Homan.  

[Ed_Baker]

BY,
There is no question that the best restoration efforts are a successful collaboration of consulting architect,talented shaper(contractor),informed and involved superintendent,and informed,dedicated,member committee.

Jerry Deemer and his associates from Traverse City,Michigan have done outstanding work all over the country.Kip Tyler is an outstanding professional superintendent.

But please don't try and minimize Ron Forse'involvement with the excellent results at Salem. His master plan and detailed restoration vision was spot on for that golf course.Part of Ron Forse'excellence is his lack of ego and his exceptional ability to meld the talents of the professionals he works with, to produce a superior product.

[redanman]

BunyaRaya

e-mail me about this or I'll tell everyone who you are!

[redanman]

Excuse me.  Typo.  

BunraRaya

[Boothill]

How did this club get such a lulu of a name.  And while I'm at it, what was the inspiration for Due Process as a golf course name?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Boothill,

If you've been reading the Star-Ledger or New York Times for the past few years and following the trials and tribulations of Robert Brennan, you can understand how the golf course was named.

After years of legal pursuit, the government finally won one of it's cases, and rumor has it that Mr. Brennan will receive 6-10 years, if the 10 year sentence is imposed, Mr. Brennan will serve hard time.

Had he taken a lower profile in his life style, all this might have been avoided.