[Ran Morrissett]

Geoffrey Childs has always harassed this site for its lack of Tillinghast content, and rightfully so.

In an effort to right that which is wrong, we are therefore delighted to post a Feature Interview with the founder of The Tillinghast Association and the coeditor (along with Bob Trebus and Stuart Wolffe) of Tillinghast's Gleanings from the Wayside, which will be available from the publisher within two weeks.

Rick & Co. will be answering queries as time permits and we hope everyone enjoys this Feature Interview as much as you will their soon to be released book!

Cheers,

[redanman]

The last paragraph of question #10 is absolutely classic.

Rick Wolffe is may I be the first here to say a wonderful gentleman with whom I will drop many a thing for the opportunity to share a fairway with (If I can hit the damned thing!).

Rick, I loved the first 2, can't wait for #3.  It's been a year since I saw the cover for it in your back seat at the Baltusrol car park and thought that I'd somehow missed it's release!  When are you coming to Allentown to play?

[redanman]

I meant its release

[aclayman]

I especially liked the "protector of the game".
So, if para-mutual betting was frowned on how do you think he would feel about the R.O.I., profit margins, windfalls and cashflows of modern golf?

Whose our protector now?

[GeoffreyC]

Ran - "harassed"? I have enough of a reputation at work and my home club already.  I guess it must be true  

Rick - wonderful interview.  I look forward to the new book as much as I enjoyed the last two.

Why do you think the restoration work at Bethpage has come under some criticism?  Specifically, some feel that features have been softened and it resembles more of a CCFAD then it should.  Do you think a restoration back to wild/bold Pine Valley like appearance could 1- stand up to the dawn to dusk play; 2- be as well liked by the BB customers 3- be able to sustain itself on $40 greens fees?  Thanks

[RJ_Daley]

I find one of the very interesting observations to be the feeling of a brotherhood among the core of architects that traced their roots to the old sod.  The comments Tillie made to Ross along those lines coupled with the project idea for a film biography of Tillie seems to play right into an idea I have had for a long time.  I really think there is a great novel and movie theme to be developed where the story line would be the criss-crossing of the country back in the golden age where these master architects compete, collaborate, and challenge eachother in the pursuit of bringing the great game to America through their architecture talents.  Of course the dialogue and actual scenarios of meetings would be fictionalized.  But, people like the Wolffes,Trebus, and many others who contribute here have the background research and talent to invent and imply what conversations and relationships would have been like in fictonal encounters between the great master architects.  The oportunity for cinema photography of the great courses and the portrayal of those master architects passions for the game and the land upon which to design the fields of play are limitless.  I always thought that Lemmon could play a great aging Tillie, and Hanks a mid life one.  But, with Lemmon's passing, I feel like that opportunities to cast favorite actor types to archies is fast fading.  

With Tillie bouncing all over America doing evaluation reports for PGA, he must have had some humorous observations and recomendations for the rudimentary courses of fellows like Bendelow, (whom I suspect he counts among the old guttie fellows in his comments of the old gang from the old days).

Finally, I have no doubt that Tillie would have been on this GCA as much as TEPaul had such a thing been available back in the day.  

[T_MacWood]

Excellent interview. I look foward to adding to your third book to my modest library.

RW I have read conflicting dates as to when Tillinhast was involved with SFGC, do you know when and how Tillie got involved with San Francisico?

Other than changes to the 4th, how has the Lower evolved/changed over the years? Are there any lost features or altered holes that you would like to see restored?

[Rick Wolffe]

Thanks for all the kind words.  I was naturally very pleased to have been asked by Ran to contribute an interview to GCA.  It is an honor.

Tom, let me take a stab at your two questions.

I am not fully versed on my SFGC history, but I understand that Tillie first went to California and SF in the mid to late teens.  I suspect Roger Lapham (who I think was a steamship executive) was the member that had something to do in retaining Tillie.  Tillie made numerous visits back to California to continue work on the Course in the twenties and thirties.  His primary point of contact for those trips was Dixwell Davenport, the Green Chairman and a USGA Executive Committee member.  From his writings it is clear that this was another course that Tillie was quite proud to have designed.  The seventh or Duel hole was one of his favorites.

In regard to Baltusrol Lower, in looking at the pre-RT Jones aerials on first blush the golf course looks to be pretty much the same as today's course.  The amalgamtion of the fourth, which I described, is probably the most noted change.  The extensive work that RT Jones and Rees have done have in many ways has been a true renovation in modernizing the course for U.S. Open play but retaining the original architectural design intent of each golf hole.  The fourth being an exception and to a lesser degree the additional bunkering added to the first and seventh as the others.  A close examination of the aerials reveals the evolutionary details -- an extended tee or new pro tee or a new fairway bunker here or there. That being said, to fully answer your question there are a couple of relatively minor pet things that I would like to see:

1. Converting back from rough to fairway the approach on 17 and 18 Lower (this grow in of rough was done for the 1980 U.S. Open and may be wishful thinking on my part as today's trend is to reduce fairway widths rather than widen them)

2. Deepening a few of the bunkers which I believe have become shallower over time; and

3. A continued expansion of no-mow areas, for which we have experienced positive results in accentuating the definition of the holes and promoting the natural surroundings.

[T_MacWood]

RW
When was the Sahara bunker altered and would you like to see it returned to its haphazard look?

I understand that Tillinghast got started with Shawnee in 1911, there seems to be a gap of a few years before he began designing full force (1915?), do you know of anything that jump started him?

He seemed to be at his zenith in the mid 20's, producing courses at an ungodly pace, when he seems to have come to screaching hault--any idea why? Burnout/disinterest/other interests?

Do you know when he moved from Philadelphia to the NY/NJ area?

I would love to see you write a Tillinghast biography in the same vain as the Ross, MacKenzie, Macdonald, etc. books.

[Ran Morrissett]

Rick,

Approximately how many bunkers does the Lower course at Baltusrol have? Is it Tillie's most heavily bunkerd course (in terms of sheer #'s)?

When I worked at the USGA, I shifted through countless photos of the Sahara bunker complex on the 17th at the Lower. It was maintained in a very natural, unkempt state in the 1950's and 60s. I haven't been to Baltusrol in a decade - how is that bunker complex presently maintained?

I can't believe we didn't ask you a question on Somerset Hills - anything in particular impress you with that design?

Cheers,

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran and Rick,

Thanks for a very interesting and informative interview.

I've always been partial to the 9th hole at Somerset, and feel that the nines should be reversed, providing a more dramatic and challenging finish.

The Poxono, Shawnee and Fort Monmouth projects seem worthwhile, too bad private enterprise can't be brought in to expedite such worthy restoration/reclaimation projects

Question # 12 needs to be reread by those critical of the work at Bethpage, especially those who never saw the before and after work

[Rick Wolffe]

Today the Sahara bunker complex on 17 Lower is higly manicured.  The old look had clumps of fescue randomly spaced.  Personally, I like the old look.  As I mentioned before, we are working to increase naturalization areas.  
There are alot of bunkers on the Lower.  I did count them once.  My guess is there are over 120 bunkers on the Lower give or take 5 or 10. There are alot a Bethpage and Winged Foot as well.  Again, I have not counted them so I have no point of comparison.  There is a great aerial photo of Brook Hollow GC in Gleanings that may show one of Tillie's most heaviliy bunkered courses.  Brook Hollow has lost many of these bunkers over the years.  In this period of Tillie's design he did build alot of bunkers.  Later in his career he approached bunkering with a more minamilist approach.

We do not have alot of info on this period of 1914-1915 in Tillie's design record.  He may have been involved with Forsythe CC in North Carolina.  His major commissions in the the mid teens were in the St. Augustine and Tampa areas of Florida.

His work did slow down in the early 1930's as a consequence of the depression.  But he did remain active until his death in 1942.

[Tom_Egan]

Rick --

Thanks very much for a marvelous interview and for digging out and sharing so much great information.  I was a Baltusrol member 1978-1993 and have more fond memories of the place than I can count.  I also remember you and Bob Trebus as very serious and knowledgeable people.

A couple of questions:  1) What is the Palmer Cup?  2) I first played at Shawnee in 1958 in the Waite (later Waring) Four Ball and remember the course pretty well, having been back a couple of times since, most recently about 20 years ago.  Which of the holes now are "intact Tillie holes?"  Would five of them be #'s 1,2,16,17,and 18 on the "non-Fred" course?  

Re: the number of bunkers on the Lower Course. I counted 125 on the Lower and 100 on the Upper in about 1990, give or take three per course.  Since Rees has done his work, I don't know what a current count would be.  The USGA Museum has a large aerial photo I donated years ago which, if you have not seen it, might provide a count circa 1980 and would also be worth comparing side-by-side with the much older photographs.

Kudos on your Trilogy and, especially, for the wonderful club history you and Dick wrote a few years ago.

Tom

[Rick Wolffe]

Tom, it is good to hear from you again.  The last time I saw you was when I was looking for a game on the starting deck at Baltusrol many years ago.

The Palmer Cup is in its fifth year.  It is sponsored by the College Golf Coaches Association.  Arnold Palmer is the namesake.  The matches pit the 8 best U.S. Collegiates against the 8 best Collegiates from Great Britain and Ireland.  The matches are played over two days in a Ryder/Walker Cup type format.  Baltusrol hosted the fifth Palmer Cup last week.  The matches will be televised on the Golf Channel the week prior to the Ryder Cup.

In regards to Shawnee, your assessment is pretty close.  Luckily, there is a little more of Tillie that survives on the Island.  The old 16th or Binniekill hole is still a wonderful one shotter.  The old first hole is pretty cool too.

Rick

[T_MacWood]

RW
Tillinhast designed so many strong courses that are now well known, what are some of his lesser known courses that deserve attention?

As you said in your interview one of Tillinghast's greatest strengths was variety, I agree. But he did seem to have some preferred practices, for example it appears he was fond of the Sahara bunker. Are there any other features, be they green contours or types of par-3s(or any other hole for that matter) or use of certain land formations or routing practices or whatever that seem to crop up with his designs?

What or who were Tillinghast's greatest influences?

In Hurdzan's book is a photo of MacKenzie's famous St.Andrew's drawing with a personal message written from MacKenzie to Tillinghast, any idea when those two men met or what their relationship might have been?

[Rick Wolffe]

Tom

Here is my try at your questions.

Of the Tillie course that have not been in the national spotlight, there a number that come to top of my mind in no particular order: Binghamton, Alpine, Bethpage Red, Swope Park Muni, Philadelphia Cricket, Kansas City, Mission Hills, Golden Valley, Oak Hills, Rochester, Brook Hollow, Sunnehanna, Niagara Falls, Scarsdale, Belmont (FKA Hermitage).  Of these, I have only had the good fortune to play Alpine, Bethpage Red and Binghamton.  The others and many more are on my to play someday list.

As far as his greatest influences, Tillie was was clearly his own genius, and only he could truely answer this question.  My speculation would have to consider all of his life's experiences to include:

His many visits to Scotland.

Old Tom Morris and many of the other Scottish/British designers, like Harry Colt.

His play over some of the other early great American courses like NGLA, Garden City and Merion

His hand in Pine Valley.

And his early laboratory at Shawnee-on-the-Delware, as he redesigned several holes there, perhaps some by trial and error.  

In addition to the Sahara or cross hazard common to par-5's, I often see the following Tillie features in his courses:

Routings with an outer and inner loop.

Contoured approaches into greens providing for the ground game.  But not on every hole.

Master guarding pits on one or both sides of a greensite.

Deception bunkers fronting an approach into a green.

The incorporation of natural features into the strategy of play -- greens on natural hillsites, greens next to water hazards, etc. (Personally, I think Tillie would abhore the common waste of a water hazard that we often see when a green has been constructed with a pond fronting it, but the pond is 25 or more yards short of the green with a bunker or two between the pond and the green -- the pond has been wasted)

Elongated/drawn out green side bunkers that extend into the approach to the green.

Elongated and angled fairway bunkers.

Relatively steep faces on green side and fairway bunkers, similar but not as severe as the common Scottish links bunker.  These bunkers were built by hand with shovels -- providing the detail of hand-sculpting, which is generally not seen in the the common American bunkers shaped with even the smallest of bulldozers.

In regards to Tillie and Alistair MacKenzie, based on my current knowledge, I would go so far as to speculate that Tillie was very competitive towards Mac and did not agree with certain aspects of Mac's design style such as Mac's edging of bunkers.

[T_MacWood]

RW
Wonderful insight and very interesting.

The St.Andrew's map has the following inscription:

"To my friend A.W.Tillinghast--
A.MacKenzie"

There is no date and he may have signed all of them 'To my friend...', I was curious if you had found any documentation of their meeting. MacKenzie was at the 1930 US Open at Merion, I'm not sure where Tillinghast was living at the time or if he attended.

Interesting you would bring up the stylistic differences between the two men, I've often wondered why the SFGC bunkers seem to break his typical mold--any ideas?

[Rick Wolffe]

Tom

I am not aware of whether Tillie was at the 1930 Amateur at Merion.  He was in attendance for the 1916 Amateur and 1934 Open at Merion, which is documented in Chapter 39 of "Reminiscenses of the Links."

It is interesting that the bunker style in many of Tillie's freehand sketches closely approximates the look of the bunkers at SFGC.

My memory is a little fuzzy on this, but I seem to recall seeing a very terse obituary for Mac written by Tillie in one of his columns.  I tried to find it in the file and naturally could not, and instead found  Tillie's touching obit for C.B. MacDonald.  I will keep my eyes open for it.

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