[Mike_Rewinski]

I played Shinnecock Hills about 3 weeks ago at a Superintendent's meeting, I've been too busy to post about it. Conditions were similar to the first day of the '86' Open except the wind was stronger, the temperature was a little warmer and the greens were faster.

Make no mistake about it Shinnecock Hills is shooting for numnber one, Pine Valley and Pebble Beach look out! This golf course has gone to next level as far as conditioning goes. I have heard stories all spring about the green speed, they're true. The greens were much too fast for me. I putted very defensively for the nine holes that we played before the wind started blowing the balls around on the greens and we quit. The golf course has been cleaned up, spiffed up, and the work continues. One very noticeable change to me; I see Shinnecock several times a year, usually just driving through. They have spent a lot of effort on cleaning up the grassy roughs between holes. All the blackberry vines, sumac, and bayberry bushes have been culled out. The natural contours of these areas, which were sort of camoflaged before, are now much more visible. They are also still thining out the tree lines and cutting the underbrush. Bunker work is also on the schedule. But the big story is the general condition of the course, it is now at the level of a top ten golf course. Great job Supt Mark Michaud.

[TEPaul]

Mike:

You've been missing from here for a long time now-nice to hear from you.

Shinnecock looked to me like pretty damn good championship condition last summer! How much more championship do you think it needs to get?

Would you try and do us a favor on here. See if you can find out how championship conditions on a continuous basis is going over with the general membership-try for a real accurate reading, like is anyone complaining? That is something I would truly like to know.

If Shinnecock does go to #1 it would make much more sense to me than Pebble.

[redanman]

Let's think about this one

Tradition?, Strategic flexibility?  Founding club of the USGA, several fabulous opens-but only two modern opens.

Difficulty?  Go play it three days in a row.  Three different golf courses, no consistency

"Shot requirements"? It usually requires one or two I don't have, so it can't be any good

Scenery?  Well, you can't see the Pacific Ocean, little fog, no cypress trees or movie stars.

Conditioning? It's usually not wall to wall green

It is a little tough for some.

I guess it doesn't have a chance

[Tony Ristola]

Course conditioning as the stepping stone to the higher... highest level?  I always assumed, especially here, that it was design and not conditioning that brought courses to the highest level.  

[TEPaul]

Tony:

I think a distinction needs to be made when the statement "good course conditioning" is used.

Some people think of good course conditioning to mean the course looks pretty, green, spiffy, whatever (Mike Rewinski did use some of those terms above about Shinnecock). Sometimes this has little to do with heightening and exentuating the essential design elements of the golf course and all its little design nuances and subtleties.

But sometimes good conditioning does mean that all the various design elements are tuned up, uncovered and dusted off to make the course and its design really SHINE and play awesome-as good as it can play! I call this the perfect "maintenance meld"-the ideal "design/maintenance" combination!

I think this is what Mike Rewinski is talking about with Shinnecock and what Michuad has done to Shinnecock. But I'm not real sure. In the past MikeR has taken exception to green speeds getting nutty-and he did mention that above, so maybe he should clarify whether he thinks Michuad has gone too far with the course championship condition-wise in a day to day membership context in the interest of driving the course to the #1 spot.

A course like Shinnecock can be tuned up to Championship conditions when the championship comes to Shinnecock but is this what the members really want and enjoy? This would be really interesting to know and why I asked MikeR the question I did above.

I can tell you last summer when I drove through Shinnecock early one beautiful warm sunny morning the course had that Championship "SHEEN" to all of it! It looked like it was ready right then to test the hell out of Tiger & Co.

If a superintendent can get a golf course like Shinnecock into really good condition all the time-into championship condition all the time, I'm fascinated by that, because it can't be easy. But I'm also fascinated to know if a general membership really enjoys playing championship conditions day in and day out.

[TEPaul]

And I can also tell you this from playing experience. If you keep a course like Shinnecock at or even near Championship Condition (US Open condtion) day in and day out, for a 15 handicap player the course is going to play about 10 shots harder, maybe more.

I'm not kidding about that, I've seen it happen not to one 15 handicap member but to all of them! Is that what the memberhip wants and enjoys?

[Mike_Rewinski]

In this country course conditioning certainly plays a part in the rating system. Inconsistent, bumpy greens, bunkers without enough sand and other such things will cause a course to be rated lower. Shinnecock's maintenance is now on par with other U.S. Open courses. Certainly the green speeds will make the golf course more difficult to play, but after all it is a U.S. Open course, is it any different at Oakmont, Oak Hill or any of the the other 'Open' courses? Pebble Beach is the exception, because of all the play the course cannot be kept 'on the edge'. And championship conditions will mean that it takes more time to play a round of golf, not something that a daily fee course seeks to encourage.
 What I object to is the idea that a regular membership course should be maintained like a U.S. Open course. Unfortunately "Tour" and "Open" courses often become the role model for other courses.

[TEPaul]

MikeR:

I see your point and I thought that's what you meant. If Shinnecock gives their members championship conditions all the time it is logical to assume that someone central at Westhampton is going to call you and demand Championship conditions at Westhampton day in and day out too.

But my next and last question is why then don't you just give it to them for a week  and then sit back and watch them sweat and struggle? When the inevitable follow up call comes asking you what you're trying to do to them just politally tell them; "That's what Championship conditions are all about and since Westhampton probably won't be hosting a United States Open anytime soon, would you mind if I just backed off now?"  

I realize trying to take your course to that level even for a weekend probably isn't something that you want to do but it would make a helluva point with the members!

[Matt_Ward]

I had the opportunity to play SH last week and agree with Mike on all the work taking place.

As a GD panelist I believe SH is America's best course. Agree with Tom Doak in giving the course a "10" and his comments that SH is a proven championship venue and a course capable of being played by the everyday player -- not many can say both!

Everyday at SH is usually different and the routing of holes by Flynn (he didn't change Raynor's work at #7 and #9) is clearly the it's strongest feature.

What better sight can there be when you stand at the practice green and overlook a course that unfolds before the eye. What a treat -- I can't wait for the 04 Open!

[Gib_Papazian]

Mike,
It has been many years since I played Shinnecock, but I recall the conditions, although outstanding, were notable for deep rough - very deep.

It struck me that a steady diet of that - regardless of the green speed - would become tiresome.

What are your thoughts?

[M.W._Burrows]

Mike,
I played there in mid-April and it looked like they were sodding all the walkoffs from tee to fairway for the purpose of an intermediate rough to continue from the tees all the way around the fairways and greens. Is this so and if it is what do you think of a stepcut at Shinnecock Hills?

We carried an intermediate rough at Myopia last year to calm members down because the unmaintained rough got so out of control due to the rain.  I hated it and don't think stepcuts belong on inland links courses.  

We played the monday after they opened when Mark had just sliced the greens and they were still faster and better than when I played there in '98.

[Jeff Fortson]

I played Shinnecock on May 29th and there wasn't a blade of grass out of place.  It is the best course in the U.S. in my opinion.  I played one of the best rounds of my life from the back tees and shot a -1 69 and I have two witnesses including a caddie.  If I had to choose one course to play for the rest of my life it would be Shinnecock or The Old Course.

The greens were rolling at about a 12 and the tees were as pure as most courses greens.  The fairways were tight and firm but not rock hard.  I can't say enough good things about this course.

Jeff

[TEPaul]

Jeff Forston:

Congratulations! That is a helluva round and that is a helluva course to do something like that on!

[Ran Morrissett]

How is the firmness of the fairways? That is the key aspect that had been most wanting in recent years.

Also, at 12 on the stimp, aren't the greens too fast? Doesn't the 7th become over the top at that kind of speed? Also, no way you bound it onto the 12th if the green is going to act like a treadmill and speed up the pace of the ball so much.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

You're correct, 12 on the stimp just won't work at Shinnecock, especially with the wind.

You are correct about # 7, but could throw in # 11, 9, 13,14, 18, and a few others.

[Mark_Fine]

Shinnecock could quite easily be number one.  It's always been in my personal top five for sure.   You're splitting hairs over which of them is best.  I haven't played it since last summer but the changes Mike talks about sound great.  I do question the greens at 12 though??  

[Jeff Fortson]

I was tolf they were at a 12 by my caddie so I'm going on his word.  I will say that if he was exagerating it wasn't by much.  They were at the very least an 11 I would say.  You are all right that 12 is too fast for some of the greens but it didn't take away from the experience of the course.  I would play there every day if the greens were rolling at a 5 or a 15.  It doesn't matter to me, the layout is unsurpassed in my eyes.

JEFF

[Joel_Stewart]

I played Shinnecock the last two days, Friday and Saturday (june 8th and 9th) and was amazed.  I have thought about a number of things to post on this site but it would be too much.
Most of the members feel the course is in the best condition ever. The new super came from Pebble Beach and has the course in near perfect condition.

Ran: The fairways are dense, lush yet firm. Since they have had alot of rain and cool weather its not surprising.

Mike R.  I thought the greens played to an 8 maybe 9 on the stimp.  Our group in 2 days had very few 3 putts, at least from a speed standpoint.

Also Mike: Its hard to argue that they want to be #1. I've played Shinnecock before but was amazed how good it was the last 2 days. I also thought despite the greens it was maybe the hardest course I have ever played. I'll post more later.

[Ran Morrissett]

Joel,

How wide are they maintaining the fairways in general? Wide enough to accommodate its windy site? I hope some were in the 40 yard plus range on the big holes?

Narrow fairways would be a pity considering the scale of the course/property and would rob the course of some interesting strategy.

However, it sounds like the new Green Keeper is awesome so I assume he's doing the right thing re: fairway width?

Joel, given the wind, I would agree with you if you said it was harder than Pine Valley and Winged Foot.

Cheers,

[TEPaul]

The fairways are around 40, 40+. I paced a few of them last summer.

[Ran Morrissett]

In reference to being "no. 1", I reckon Shinnecock Hills has a real chance with GOLF's upcoming world top 100, which is due out in 60 days.

As with Cypress Point, I assume that every panelist would give Shinnecock Hills an "A", which means top ten in the world. And , no doubt, more than a couple give it an "A+", which means number one.

Any course that receives all "A's" has a real chance of being no.1.

A pure guess is that you might see either Cypress or SH oust Pine Valley in GOLF's rankings - remember, you heard it here first  

Cheers,

[Joel_Stewart]

Ran: The fairways are very wide with the first cut of rough being fairly narrow.  The dune grass is about knee high and growing. The fringe is around 20 feet wide in many places.  Its a fantastic yet difficult course for chipping.

The most interesting talk among the members and my biggest question is that despite the great condition of the course the new super is doing a very unusual mowing patterns on the fairways.  He splits the fairway in half, mowing toward the green on one half and toward the tee on the other half.  The result is a fairway that is half dark green and half light green.  It is very dramatic yet difficult to see the site lines of where the fairway ends.  One member I played with thought it was very artistic?  Should a super play games with a classic course with mowing patterns?

[Joel_Stewart]

Ran:
I've played Pine Valley a few times last year and got it up and down a number of times when I missed the green.  But over the last 2 days, I didn't think I could get up and down at all at Shinnecock.  Furthermore, even the first cut of rough which is very dense, it was hard to get the club on the ball.  I'm sitting here today still stunned at how hard Shinnecock played.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Fortson,

69 from the back tees is an awesome score regardless of the pace of the greens.

No doubt a day you'll long remember.

Congratulations on a wonderful round on a world class golf course.

[TEPaul]

Joel:

The down and back dual color mowing pattern Michaud is doing ain't called artistic, it's called classic man! He was doing it last summer too, and it's very cool.

It's the look and pattern of most of the old classic courses and others from pre-war and the "Golden Age". Basically it was the way that the old gang mowers mowed the fairways-except Michaud AIN'T USING GANG MOWERS!!!

You're right it is a bit off-putting from the tee but that too is a good thing! It can actually throw a golfer off that isn't concentrating! Check out any of the old aerials in something like GeoffShac's "Golden Age of Golf Design" and you will see that down and back dual color fairway pattern all over the place.

I thought Huntingdon Valley was into some cool "Golden Age" maintenance practices; obviously Shinnecock is very much on the same track!

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