[Ran Morrissett]

I played at Pinehurst National GC today for the first time. In particular, the course is noteworthy for its collection of wildly undulating greens, the most severe of any Nicklaus course that I've seen.

Several of the greens had a lower back shelf (ie the back portion of the green was lower than the middle and/or front). In general, there was a distinct ridge about 3/4 of the way onto the green and from there it dropped down a foot or two to a lower section. From out in the fairway, the flag stick looked four feet tall or so.

Approaching such back hole locations proved to be tons of fun: you could a) fly it all the way onto the back section or b) fly it into the middle of the green hoping that it would then release down the step in the green onto the lower back section or c) in one case, I hooded a 4 iron from 130 and tried to chase it down the back slope.

The third green at The Old Course has a lower back right area where I've seen the hole once and overall, I think it is a very appealing feature.  

Have you seen many greens with such a lower back section? What are some good examples? Did you like how they played?

Cheers,

[TEPaul]

Wow, how cool is that? Good on Jack! And I can't think of a single other one, but although I've never seen it, I thought that a ridge with a dropdown in the back was one of the green features of the Duel Hole at SFGC.

[TEPaul]

That could be a great added feature for that new concept long par 3/short par 4 hole I was trying to come up with last year that is driveable over some complicated fronting mounds/bunkers or whatever.

Driving it at the green was the high risk play but the safe play was to take out a driver and slam it past the hole to either side flanking/Turbo boost areas and coming back at it from behind it!

I can't even remember what I was calling that thing now.

The neat thing about that hole concept on the raw ground that I thought it might work was that there was the option in the routing of playing to that green from the exact opposite direction which would be a shortish to medium length par 4.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

You have a short-term memory. How about the fourth green at Redtail? The back left features a prominent lower tier. That's the short par 4 hole with the pine trees narrowing down the fairway closer and closer to the green. A strategy you liked, but I didn't  

However, when those pine trees die and the original driving strategy is gone, that green might actually save the hole from turning "dull"! Perhaps that was Steel's and Mackenzie's thoughts?

Nonetheless, the fourth at Redtail is an interesting green to approach when the flag is on that back left lower tier.

[RJ_Daley]

Lawsonia has an a couple of these.  The most delicious one is the par 4 6th, 405forward 440 back tees.  Playing downhill over a gull wing crossing bunker cutting in from right.  The hole is a slight dogleg right. Carry the cross bunker and get a big roll for about a mid to short iron into a green that appears just to be one of the typical large and platformed greens at Lawsonia.  There are two red maples about 30 yards behind the green.  You do not see the drop off from front tier to back tier from fairway.  But if the pin is front tier you aim in line with right red maple, and left one if pin is back tier.  I wish I could post pics because I have this one well documented.  It is a hole to love...

The other one is a par 3 12th with an huge drop angled across green at 45* angle with back tier back left and front higher tier front right.  It is an oddball variation of a redan with another platform green and redan bunker front left and open run-up on right.

[Jim_Bick]

15th at Stone Harbor in NJ, had this feature, at least several years ago when I last saw it. Given all the "unusual" features of this Desmond Muirhead design (many of which have been removed over the years) it did not stick out that much. Some of the more aggressive options were removed by the back half of the green being surrounded by water.

[Jeff_Mingay]

George Thomas promoted fairway behind the green in similar cases to that described above by Tom. Well, at least many of the hole diagrams in his book illustrate such strategy.

I wonder why this concept never "caught on"?

Not to divert away from Ran's initial question, but is there a hole in existence anywhere in the world on which a "smart" approach is to play over the back of the green onto a piece of fairway from where the subsequent stroke is simpler?

[Peter Galea]

The fourth at Spyglass Hill. Way cool.

[TEPaul]

I remember that crazy new concept hole from last year--it was called the "Playback Hole".

JeffM: On that concept hole there was no fairway directly behind the hole--only some feature or danger! Danger of some serious kind directly in front too. The safer play was to the fairway wings on either side of the green and beyond which would have featured "turbo boost" areas directly adjacent to either green side (right and left) taking the ball beyond the green.

I didn't really even think that concept up--I actually saw such a natural piece of ground on a piece of property I was doing a routing on. And later I realized that a hole could come at the green site from the exact opposite direction.

This is a hole I would never recommending bulldozing into existence. It needs a lot of a certain kind of landform.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ran,

The 9th at Hollywood has one of the neatest drop downs you'll ever want to see.

The first 3/4 of the green flows in continuous form from the land in front, uphill, to a crest, then dips down by 3 feet or more to a well protect rear portion.

Go over and you're dead.  Go left or right and you're dead.  Hit the green short of the ridge, and your work is cut out for you.

Hollywood has some really neat greens and this is one of my favorites.

[TEPaul]

"Go long and you're dead-go left and you're dead-go right and your dead!" Instead of play it just short of the ridge didn't you mean play it just over the snake pit and short of the ridge and then you have your work cut out for you?

"Hollywood" is just the generic name of the club! More specifically it's known as the "The Country Club of the Raiders of the Lost Ark".

I love it!!

[ForkaB]

Two holes that have been discussed on this site come to mind:  the 4th at Spyglass and the 6th at Kingsbarns.  I don't think that god could hit directly onto the lower back shelf of either green and have a hope in h**l of staying on.

[moth]

I'm suprised Rich Goodale didn't post this one, but the 1st at Dornoch has a neat little lower shelf (back left from memory) that made a big impression on me when I played there.

[Scott_Burroughs]

I've played Pinehurst National and if I remember, holes 6, 8, and maybe 15 have those back lower shelves.  Does this sound right?  Any holes I'm forgetting?  I'm playing in a scramble tourney there again on the 31st.  The back location on 8 (par 5) is extremely well-guarded.

[ForkaB]

bret

I wouldn't deign to call The Devil's Ochster, that hideous 80 square foot little grass bunker cut to green height at the back left of the 1st at Dornoch, a "shelf."  For one thing the only possible way of hitting your second shot to that "shelf" is to try not to when the pin is on the other relatively flat 95% of the putting area (particularly at the left middle pin position).  When the pin is in the Ochster your only realistic options are: a.  hitting a shot at the pin and then relying on getting up in two from the back rough, using the slope of the Ochster as a back stop, or b.  hitting it elsewhere on the green and then hoping you can get your first putt just over the slope and then trusting in your ability to make the 10 foot comebacker from the fringe.  I honestly didn't even know that part of the green existed until my 10th or so visit to Dornoch in the mid-late 80's when I got to the middle of the fairway in a tournament and noticed that the flagstick seemed to have shrunk.  After that it was Col. Kurtz time "The Horror, the Horror of it all...."  I have been trying to get that vision out of my head for over 10 years now.  Writing these words is very good therapy for dealing with the post-traumatic stress syndrome and repressed memories that I have of that experience and that feature of that hole.  Thank you for assisting me with my recovery.

[David Wigler]

This is a design feature that can also wreck a hole.  #6 at Reynolds National is an otherwise terrific par 5.  The green is about 200 degrees surrounded by water.  Fazio built a lower bottom tier to the green.  The problem is that the tier is too small to land a ball on and hold the shot and any ball running over the ridge will pick up too much speed and go beyond the edge of the green and into the water.  This feature eliminates any opportunity to play for the green in two and even wedges must be hit to the top portion of the green and then putted over the ridge to the bottom.  I have played this hole about five times with the pin on the bottom shelf and have yet to see anyone get close to it.

At minimum, the lower portion of the green should have a back to front slope or a sand trap between the back of the green and the water.  Instead this hole has practically no transition area between green and lake.  Unfortunately for an otherwise strong Fazio public effort, this green complex simply does not work.

[DB3]

Mr. Jeff Mingay.  
  In response to your question is there a hole anywhere in the world where the smart play is over the green.  Indeed the 4th hole at the Pete Dye golf club would fit into this category.  It is fairly obvious in that the hole is a par 3 over water.  But if the pin is located anywhere on the left side of the green, the simplest place to get your 3 with a good chance for a 2 is the fairway behind the green.In other words instead of a4 iron to the middle of the of green, hit 3 iron to the back or over, get your 3, and then go birdie the par 5 5th.  The same can be said for the 16th hole, a long par 3 where over the green is a simple uphill chip back to the hole.  Pete doesn't always  make it obvious, but it seems to me that on several of his courses he has a hole or two where the prudent play is long.

[Michael Moore]

Great topic. There are two here in Maine that come to mind.

1st hole Poland Springs (Ross) - This is a 350 yard hole, downhill all the way. The green is tiny and features a three foot drop two thirds of the way along. The green then drops off into a nasty bunker.

17th hole Cape Arundel (Travis) - This hole is 365 yards long. Thirty yards off the green the fairway falls off the face of the earth, plunging to a tiny green that drops FIVE feet in the middle. I didn't believe it the first time I saw it. Water right, water behind, bail out left.

I absolutely love this feaure, and I have never seen anyone come remotely close to a three on either of these holes. Ran is correct in stating that there are multiple approaches to this type of green. These greens are so small and blind, however, that picking a shelf to aim for is folly. Anywhere on the putting surface is considered succesful.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff and DB3,

I would submit that on hole # 7 at NGLA, when going for the green in two, the smart second shot if the pin is center to back center, is to favor the long shot, which leaves a relatively easy pitch or chip for your birdie.

TEPaul, et.al., what do you think ?

[DB3]

Patrick:
   While it has been a couple of years since I was fortunate enough to play National( my friend and I were one of two groups that day and I took several pictures will break them out and take a look), I don't specifically remember what is over the 7th green.  Along your same lines anything over the 1st green at Royal County Down is good.  All the trouble on that hole is 20 to 30 yards short of the green.  I think it is fun to have a hole or two like that on the course where over or long is the play.  While I haven't been fortunate enough to play Oakmont, one of my best friends played the open there, I think it was 94, and told me he tried to hit it over the green on one, all four days.  Of course he also said it was pretty much going over whether you wanted it to or not with the green running away from you so severly.  Also hitting a little long on the 12th at Pine Valley is the best way to get three.  You could also say that about the 4th.

[ian]

There are lots of examples where the green runs diagonally, I personally have built a few very recently.This green is more common than may have been noticed but..... I only have seen a couple where the shelf is directly behind the upper plateau. The best is Kawartha Lakes by Stanley Thompson, 1/3 in the front, and 2/3 in the back (this portion is largely a bowl shape. What makes the green particularly great is that the green is at the same height as the fairway. You have to bump the ball in, its a short 4, and everybody who tries to fly it on runs down the 24" shelf to the back of the green.

[Tim_Weiman]

Ran:

One of the best such greens is here in the Cleveland area at Westwood Country Club, an Alison/Colt design.

The third hole at Westwood is a short Par 4 (315 yards) with just enough of a dog leg and trouble around the green that a lay up shot is probably the wisest play from the tee.

The green is two tiered with the back lower than the front by a foot or so.  What makes the approach shot really hard is the back side of the ridge through the green.  Land on it and you will likely shoot off the back.

The trick is to land in the front and let your ball trickle over the ridge to the back portion of the green.

I've done it just right once or twice in the many times I've play the course.

[TEPaul]

Who is this db3? He really knows what he's talking about.

Pat:

Yes going for #7 NGLA in two, no doubt the most sensible thing to do is to go long and left. I played to that hole everyday this year from the right side of the fairway (approaching in 3) from about 80-90yds and I believe the best play to almost any pin on that green is to go a litte long and a little left of it! There is subtle slope on that green (front right to back left) but that green is all about brilliant angle and width. It makes little sense at all to try to get to the right of a right front pin and the same theme is actually true as the pin position goes to the left and long. Until the pin got way into the back of that green I would always want to be a little left and  a little long of the pin. The use of angle (orientation) and width on that green is some of the best in the world! And the front rise on that green is one of the most visually deceptive angles I've seen. From the fairway approach it's so hard to tell how diagonal the green front really is.

Frankly, I can't really think of a collection of more greens on one course anywhere in the world that are more fascinating and VARIED than greens #1, #3, #4, #6, #7, #8, #10, #11, #12, #13, #15.

Maidstone is the other course out there that I know best and the only greens there that are even remotely in the same ballpark (for green surfaces) are #6, #10 and #18.

[herrstein@aol.com]

My 1st thought was the 4th at Spyglass. Then I realized that such greens are in many ways similar to some Redans- especially the original 15th North Berwick. The day I played there the wind was howling at our backs. The only safe way to par that day was to play long and come back into the slope and the wind.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The 2nd at Somerset, a hybrid redan has the drop down feature.

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