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Tommy_Naccarato

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #50 on: July 19, 2001, 07:00:00 PM »
Wayne,
Then you'll even be more impressed with my back-tracking!

Sorry for the tepid response. I get pretty upset just thinking about what a "wonderful"  job they are doing to such a special place.

Another quick story:

My cousin is a very well-to-do building architect. He recently sold his house and bought a much bigger and beautiful place that can be considered a fixer-upper for the Orange County-set. The prior owners had a "War of the Roses"-style divorce.

He had me pretty much oversee the construction of his new offices in his back yard, and I'm quite proud how they came out. But while I was doing the new office, he decided it was an appropriate time to start gutting and rebuilding the actual residence. This of course, against my advice. Being the one-man wrecking crew that I am, I can only do so much, especially since he didn't want to pay for more help.

What has happened is that part of the house is coming out splendid, only after going through all of his alloted money to finish it.

While things may look pretty right now, I told him to give it some time, due to the craftsmanship, and it will be pretty ugly. (Cracks, hardwood floors coming up, because he doesn't want to pay attention to how condensation naturally seeps through the concrete foundation, etc. and certain things not working as he had hoped) Once that new shine and finish is gone......

All the while this is going on, I'm thinking of Merion!

As a civil engineer, I think you can appreciate that!


GarySmith

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #51 on: July 19, 2001, 07:06:00 PM »
Patrick,

I believe there was some qualification to Scott's statement.


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #52 on: July 19, 2001, 09:13:00 PM »
GeoffreyC:

It's not accurate to say: "For some unknown reason Hanse and Kittleman did not get the bunker restoration job at Merion", because they did get the job and later lost the job after restoring a number of bunkers.

The reasons they lost the job are complex, to say the least, and probably involve a number of factors some of which may not strictly involve golf architecture.

There were timing issues, probably a number of interrelated maintenance issues, probably some old personal dynamics, possibly some friction between architect and contractor, and some membership dissatisfaction with the way some of the Hanse restored bunkers were playing, as well as an initial  missunderstanding concerning architectural attribution that involved an unfortunate listing by Ron Whitten that may not have been inspired by who it was believed to have been inspired by (or maybe I should say condoned by) and ultimately was "untakebackable", if you know what I mean.

Consequently, Merion began to look elsewhere and my understanding is they attempted to reach out to Coore & Crenshaw but for one reason or another C&C and Merion did not connect on the bunker project. In fairness to both C&C and Merion, C&C was probably out of the restoration business by then.  

Merion then hired Tom Fazio to work with the contractor who had been hired simultaneous with Hanse and Kittleman. This is MacDonald & Co from Maryland, who most know are doing a ton of bunker restorations including US Open preparations.

The ultimate issue, involving many of these parties, as I understand it, was the actual nature and condition of Merion's bunkers PRIOR to any of this restoration project. It was basically a matter of two people looking at the same thing and one seeing one thing and the other seeing something entirely different, in my opinion.

One faction believed Merion's bunkers were falling apart and the other faction likely thought the evolutionary, forever hand-repaired, rugged and scraggly look of them was beautiful and unique--the essence of their character, so to speak.

There is no doubt that Merion's bunkers did need some serious work. They needed their drainage repaired and restored and they needed to be resanded. The $64,000 question, though, was did they really need to have their edges, particularly their top edges and their profiles, surrounds, grasses and evolutionary details reworked or totally reworked?

The various parties seemed to be in disagreement over this and ultimately the club decided to totally rework the bunkers. In fairness to Merion they were not trying to change the look of their famous bunkers,  they were only trying to repair them.

And this is where restoration PLANNING and RESEARCH, decision making and processing gets really complicated, particularly if you are dealing with bunkers as famous and complex as Merion's.

Those interested in this subject must understand that there is a certain amount of design and construction latitude if you are restoring and reworking the bunkers of Gulph Mills or even Aronomink and certainly many other courses. But when you are doing these things with the "White Faces of Merion" and you want to preserve their detail and ageless character there is probably no latitude at all!

I believe to really get the job done well, provided you have made the decision to do it at all (which could be separately debated),  you have to try to pull in the best of the best for this kind of thing. It should not take you long in the researching of a project like this to realize that most architects and contractors are probably not interchangeable for this type of complicated project!

My personal feeling is you should commit to throw out things like any committee assumptions of any kind going into the research part of it and start to filter through the knowledge and information of the conoisseurs and artistes in the world of golf architecture and restoration architecture.

I would have started by bringing in Geoff Shackelford to analyze aerial and photographic material. You can't believe the things he can find in classic course aerials that can lead to interesting and valid conclusions. The most valuable thing a guy like Shackelford knows about the value of historic aerials is not just what you can see from the air but what you never can see!! That aerials from about 3,000ft can show you a lot but the best they can do is two dimensions! And this is where a guy like Kye Goalby (and certainly Hanse, Kittleman, Hine, C&C, Doak, Forse and some others) can translate the look on the ground into the necessary three dimensions and the necessary detail.

This is when you start to go from ordinary top profile straight horizontal lines and ordinary, rounded and matching ground level  vertical lines to something that looks like nature actually made it or evolved it. This is where you need to get the real bunker making artistes involved to do the dirt work instead of some contractor employees riding around on little mechanized equipment that  tends to just smooth things out! And this is how you're going to get real character and quality that unfortunately even good historic aerials have a hard time catching!

This is when good research, willingness to dispense with simple and easy assumptions, an open mind and good people pay off!

It's possible I wouldn't be saying any of this about Merion if I wasn't able to have an honest and open dialogue with Bill Greenwood, the Chairman of the Merion Green Committee. It's about the fourth time I've mentioned it but I feel that anyone who is interested in this subject on this website should take the time to understand the facts and complexity of the Merion bunker project and also to be civil to Greenwood and his committee. If you care at all about the bunkers there shouldn't be any other way.

That's the architectural and more technical side of the bunker project, but the other side of the coin is the process side! And this is really for you TommyN. I know you and you're my friend but you just have to start to understand a little better that  side of these restoration projects. A guy like Bill Greenwood cares a lot about Merion and he wants to do the right thing and if he makes a mistake I feel confident he would admit it. If he's going in the wrong direction and somebody can point out to him why that is he would change directions and go in the right direction if he could.

What you don't really understand is he has always had an active and opinionated membership like most of us involved in projects like this and that has to be dealt with as well or better than the architectural project. There just isn't any way around it unless you are John Arthur Brown at Pine Valley but Bill Greenwood is not JAB and Merion is not PVGC by a long shot! There have been Green Chairmen who did things for dumb and personal reasons but Greenwood isn't one of those. He probably has five hundred members with two hundred and fifty different opinons and he has to deal with that somehow and build some kind of a consensus or things could likely get really screwed up.

So please Tommy and some of the others, at least admit that you have some understanding of the process and what it means to the final product. I know that if a guy like Ed Baker reads this he's going to agree with what I'm saying. You've got all the passion in the world about classic architecture and classic courses but if you don't understand that you have to deal with the memberships, you've got to respect them or at least act like you do, then all the passion in the world will not help you much. You can get all your passionate guns blazing but if you don't understand the process they will shoot you down every time!

There are some other good things coming out of Merion so be supportive and help out.

This could be my longest post yet, it's way too blunt and I should probably just clear it but I have my finger on the submit button, so here it goes...


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #53 on: July 20, 2001, 03:34:00 AM »
Rich Goodale,

See the news flash on the six flags coaster?  Hell, I saw it live, as my office windows face that coaster! First, one of the guys noticed the news copters flying around. Of course, at first we thought it was a raid on our office from the "Bad Architecture Division" of the Golf Architecture Police.

Upon closer inspection, we could see the unlucky riders stopped at the top of the hill. Word has it that they spent the 45 minutes on top of the hill discussing the merits of the Merion bunkers! (Probably not, but this is a shameless attempt to stay at least somewhat on topic!!)

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy_Naccarato

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #54 on: July 20, 2001, 04:41:00 AM »
Tom,
Yes, I'm an extremist when it comes to the cause of Merion and the questionable moves of THEIR club.

You couldn't have spoken it any better in a very apolitical way. However, I have not singled or mentioned Mr. Greenwood's name in any of my recent tirades. I'm very hestitant to do this, unlike the past, just because of your friendship with him.

But ultimately, I have to ask why this had to become a political issue on both sides? The victim of all of this has now been plowed asunder and it is too late to even fight or actually change what frightfull damage has been done. The owner/members who approved this have to be the ones that shall bare the brunt of responsiblity of destroying the historical and most charmed characteristics of the club.

It didn't have to be that way, and the place seemed to be moving in a right direction until the unfortunate Ron Whitten/Golf Digest accreditation which had the right men for the job dismissed-Bill Kittleman and Gil Hanse.

I ask myself, "Why would a crazy overweight electrician from La Habra, California even care?" And the only answer is simply because for so many years I marveled at the perfection of their club, and then to see it reduced to the brunt of poltical play simply because they don't want the person who knew the infrastructure of the bunkers best, to even be associated with them any more.

It has been a stab at the heart of the person who cared the most--Bill Kittleman.

This fact alone will be shown in history of "What Happened."  

There is so much more I want to say, but unfortunately, I have to go to work. I'll try to continue later tonight.


Tommy_Naccarato

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #55 on: July 20, 2001, 04:45:00 AM »
Jeff,
Is that the window next to the dart board with my picture on it?

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #56 on: July 20, 2001, 05:23:00 AM »
Tommy,

You never sent your picture, as I requested. I would never throw darts at it, unless you digitalize yourself into an asgca tartan.....

You know, I would say you have been a bit harsh about Merion these last few months, but at least it takes your mind of ASGCA, so I won't complain.

You know, its funny how different news events seem to occur in bunches, in ways related to us. For instance, on the day of the roller coaster stoppage, there was also a baseball stoppage in Baltimore. My other window (as a high powered executive, I have the corner office) faces the home of the Texas Rangers, who had their road game cancelled because of a train explosion outside Camden Yards in the famous B and O Howard Street Tunnel. Well, famous to me, since one grandfather worked for the B and O, and I am well versed in their history because of that.  Last month, the runaway train through Ohio, started adjacent to my other grandfather's farm.  It just seems funny that so many news events would have a personal connection in so short a time.

Not exactly golf architecture, but hey, a guy has to have a life outside GCA too!

Jeff

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

GeoffreyC

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #57 on: July 20, 2001, 05:25:00 AM »
Tom

Thanks for the heart-felt and (probably too detailed for the internet) explaination of the Merion project.  I certainly hope that it works out as well as you think it has the potential to do so.  I wish Mr. Greenwood all the best for this most difficult project. I think everyone wants a club with such a rich tradition and history to continue to be a model for what was possible in the Golden Age of golf design.  


Patrick_Mucci

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #58 on: July 20, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »
GarySmith,

Let Scott Borroughs answer for himself.


Mike_Cirba

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #59 on: July 20, 2001, 06:42:00 AM »
Tom Paul;

Thank you for your forthright summation of the history of this project, as well as some of the complexities involved.  

I'm certain that it's never a picnic for ANYONE in charge of a golf course, because as I pointed out in a recent thread, EVERYONE seems to think they know golf course architecture these days.  My admiration goes out to Green Chairmen, Superintendents, etc., all of whom have a pretty thankless job.

Everyone here knows my thoughts on the result of the work, so I won't repeat myself again.

I am still perplexed by the attribution, and am wondering if you all are referring to what appeared in Golf Digest in February in the "Top 100" issue.  In it, Ron Whitten wrote that the white faces of Merion are improved again, due to the work of Tom Fazio.  At that point, and certainly during the rating period, the Fazio work hadn't even begun.  I'm amazed at how this could have happened, and don't understand the dynamics involved.  


Patrick_Mucci

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #60 on: July 20, 2001, 07:05:00 AM »
Tommy Naccarato,

Things aren't always as simple as you might think, at Merion, at Garden City Golf, or any other club that operates in other than a dictatorial fashion.

Architectual issues that you and I and everyone on this site might agree on, get challenged at the committee and membership level for a variety of reasons.

In my limited experience, on major projects, no matter how they try to camoflage it, money is the bottom line issue.

Another major issue is change itself.  Many don't want to restore anything because that is a change from what they have grown accustomed to.

Another objection is taking the hole or course out of play during construction.
Some people are very selfish, and rather than fix, restore, improve a hole, they vote no simply so their play won't be disrupted.

You really can't believe all of the other objections people give to restoring a hole, or doing the right things for the golf course.

I have sat in so many green committee and board meetings recently, and said to myself,
WHERE ARE MY FELLOW GCA POSTERS NOW, WHEN I NEED THEM ?  I'm telling you it's one of the most frustrating experiences to go through.

You keep on expecting intelligent, well researched thought to prevail, but it doesn't always work that way.

I state now, as I have stated in the past, democracy has no place at a golf club.
The great clubs have dictators or a small controlling body running the show.  Unfortunately, clubs are moving away from that structure, and the disfiguring of the golf course is usually the result.


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #61 on: July 20, 2001, 09:05:00 AM »
Patrick,
   What I was saying is that the media says the reason Merion won't hold another Open is length, no room for galleries, etc.  What they don't say, is that they were taken out of consideration in the 80's also due to the membership policy, a la Aronimink and Cypress.  What I don't know is if their policy has changed.
   I read on another golf web site (who know's if it's true) about a guy who was denied guest privileges (guest of a fairly famous person) due to his ethnicity (and he was not black).

   I don't know if the Tour's policy of clubs' membership requirements is strictly mulitracial or if it also means multigender, where PV and Burning Tree would fall.


Patrick_Mucci

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #62 on: July 20, 2001, 09:57:00 AM »
Scott Borroughs,

You indicated in your post of 07-20-01 that "you didn't know if their policy has changed", which would imply that you knew what their membership policy was in the 1980's.  Would you let me know what that policy was.

Before being openly critical of a club, and casting dispersions, don't you think you're obligated to know what the facts are today, and what they were in the 1980's, or is it SOP for you to make snap judgements and pronouncements without all the facts ?

Since the OPEN is conducted by the USGA wouldn't it be more relevant to find out what the USGA's policy is, rather than what the PGA Tour's Policy is ?


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #63 on: July 20, 2001, 10:52:00 AM »
Patrick, please point to the exact location in either of my posts where I was being critical of Merion's membership policy.  Not once was I being critical of it.  I don't give a rat's a$$ about it to be critical of it.  Private clubs are allowed to do whatever they want and I would drop everything in a second to go play these clubs.  I was merely pointing out what I must've read in a newspaper or magazine probably fifteen years ago to be fact and, as I have said already, I know nothing about what it's like today except for the post I read on another website.

You're correct that I should have said USGA and I confused the two.  If they had a different policy than the Tour it would surprise me, at least when it came to a high profile event like the men's Open.  With regards to the PGA Championship, where the conversation started with Aronimink, the PGA Tour doesn't run that either, that's the PGA of America.  So what's their policy?

If I reported something incorrectly I recall from 15 years ago, it wouldn't be the first time.  I remember being 20 pounds lighter and not as strong as I am now but being able to hit the ball further with a small steel-headed driver and ordinary-to-today's standard balls, but maybe that's not as right as I think it is either.


George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #64 on: July 20, 2001, 01:09:00 PM »
Scott -

The very fact that Merion is hosting an upcoming US Amateur would seem to imply that the situation is satisfactory to USGA standards.

I have read enough of your posts to know that you did not mean anything disparaging, but I do think commenting on situations 15 years ago, where you're relying on an admittedly vague recollection and possibly 2nd or 3rd hand sources, probably wasn't the best of ideas.

I sentence you to 36 holes of hard labor, to be performed sometime this weekend at the course of your choice. Please report back with the results of your punishment. :-)

Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Patrick_Mucci

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #65 on: July 20, 2001, 02:06:00 PM »
George,

I wish you would have let me press this issue a little further, but...

Scott,

I thought your 07-19-01, 10;45 AM post was irresponsible, and unfair to the members of Merion.

It is common knowledge that Merion can host an OPEN today, in that they satisfy the USGA' policy on membership.  This is evidenced by the USGA's agreement to hold an Amateur Championship at Merion.

I don't know what you MEANT by your posts, I can't interpret them any differently than they were written.


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2001, 08:07:00 AM »
In a nutshell, I was stating what I remembered it to be then and I didn't know if it had changed, if in fact it was that way.  It was more like a question.  I certainly meant nothing of it.  

George, I think 36 holes at Merion would be severe punishment. ;-)  I'd put the winking smily face, but I don't know how.


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2001, 08:39:00 AM »
Merion's membership make-up is of no issue to the USGA and it wouldn't be to the PGA of America either--although neither the PGA of America nor Merion would be interested in holding a PGA Championship at Merion, I'm sure.

If the USGA offered Merion another Open I believe they would be interested! I certainly hope they would be--certainly at some point during Tiger Woods career--for obvious reasons.

I feel the real reason the USGA isn't thinking of scheduling an Open at Merion has everything to do with lack of revenue and nothing much to do with the golf course's ability to test the best golfers in the world.

I also feel that the USGA should admit the real reason they aren't planning to go back to Merion. It isn't (or shouldn't be) the card length of the golf course and there are a number of touring pros to testify to that fact. Merion has a number of defenses to test the best even if total card yardage doesn't APPEAR to be one of them.