News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2001, 06:12:00 PM »
Jim:

I certainly didn't say that racism is exclusive to the south, in the past or now--and I hope I didn't imply that racism is a southern disease. All I said was Hall Thompson (the racist dude from Shoal Creek, Alabama--sorry I forgot the guys's name) made one helluva a remark that really started a controversy. I'd feel the same way about him and his remark if he and his golf club was in Massachusetts--or anywhere else.

As for Aronomink G.C. they got put in a real difficult situation by the precipitous PGA policy change that was an instant reaction to the Hall Thompson remark that basically created a firestorm of controversy.

It's too easy to say that Aronomink could have just done what the PGA asked them to do but what not many people know is to do that they were being forced to go out and find a couple of blacks that probably weren't even interested in joining Aronomink and then just jump them ahead of all the other people who were on the waiting list to join the club.

Is that really the principled thing to do or is that just the convenient and expedient and probably somewhat hypocritical thing to do? It was a tough situation for Aronomink and in the end they did solve the apparent racial problem and ended up losing a couple of millions dollars in what they spent on the course in preparation for the PGA that never happened there.

I remember that some people around here suggested they just get in touch with Julius Irving and quickly make him a member. It may have actually been discussed but I heard he didn't want to do something that ludicrous just because of a rush policy by the PGA all due to that remark of Hall Thompson.

I posted some time ago how Augusta National handled the Thompson/Shoal Creek situation.  They solved the problem behind the scences and very quickly but it seems to me that it was far more ludicrous than anything Julius Irving may have thought.


jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2001, 06:57:00 PM »
Tom:

Aronomink was certainly caught in a bind and the immediate trigger event clearly was Hall Thompson's stupid/unfortunate remarks. However, I suspect that if it had not been Mr. Thompson and Birmingham, the issue would probably have come to a head somewhere and before long. The interviewer just found the right sucker when he put the question of minority memberhip to Mr. Al Campanis, I mean Hall Thompson.

Frankly, I respect clubs like Aronomink that refused to cave in under pressure. I presume they eventually did the right thing on their schedule, not the PGA's. I don't know whether its true, but I remember hearing that Cypress Point withdrew from the Crosby/AT&T rather than allowing an outside agency to dictate their membership policy.

"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2001, 07:45:00 PM »
Jim:

Who is Al Campanis?


jim lewis

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2001, 08:03:00 AM »
Tom:

Either you ae kidding or you are not much of a baseball fan. I thought everyone in Philly was a baseball fan.


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2001, 08:26:00 AM »
Oh, I got you-that Al Campanis. No, I'm not a baseball fan though. I thought Hall Thompson might be such an odd duck that he felt insecure or something about his real name and changed it to one that was undeniably southern.

You know if someone told me a guy's name was Bull Hancock, I could almost tell you where he came from. BTW, Bull was a great pal of Bear, you know--and Bull was one of the best guy's I ever met! So was Lyons Brown and Stets Coleman and Warner Jones. You would never confuse any of those guys with a Philadelphian or a New Yorker.

There's a lot in a name. Those guys actually put together the syndicate to put another great name out in the arena--a guy by the name of Cassius Clay. Later he goes and changes it to Muhammed Ali! I think that really pissed them off! I don't think they ever really forgave him for doing that.


Patrick_Mucci

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2001, 01:35:00 AM »
TEPaul,

Is Lyons Brown the father of Owlsley (sp) Brown, who used to winter in Delray Beach ?
From Kentucky, Brown-Forman Distillaries ?

Owlsley and I used to climb Banyan trees and hunt snakes as kids.

Small world isn't it ?


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2001, 04:38:00 AM »
Pat:

Yes, Lyons was his father and Brown-Forman was Lyon's company. I knew his daugher Ina Brown much better who was married to Billy Musselman, one of the best amateur golfers I've ever known. Ina is a great girl, real easy going and all who didn't really drink that much but if anyone ever challenged her (and they did) she could sit up all night and drink any man (anybody) under the table. None of us ever saw anything like it and how apropos that she just happened to be the daughter of the Brown-Forman distillery company.

So you were that weird kid we used to see climbing banyan trees hunting for snakes, huh?


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #32 on: July 18, 2001, 05:34:00 AM »
Pat:

Just to put those guys into a timeframe and to show how old we've gotten, I'll sort of date those days--which were actually a number of years after you were climbing around in banyan trees.

It started when I was a late teenager to my mid twenties and Billy (who is about my age) was already married to Ina and had a couple of kids. I used to play almost everyday with Billy and Johnny Rock (the assistant) at Gulf Stream. These were always the dates of Christmas or spring break for me. I was lucky to play with them since I was a bad golfer then!

Billy used to come down and play with some of those guys mentioned above (or Davey Reynolds of Richmond) in things like the Gulf Stream and Seminole member/guest. His great buddy, Vinny Giles, seemed to always be there too. Probably Harcourt Kemp too. Those men would basically import the biggest guns they could get their hands on! And they expected the impossible out of them too. I remember Billy coming back from the Seminole Tournament one day after shooting a 67 and Davey Reynolds was complaining he hadn't done enough.

Sometimes it was hard to get out on Gulf  Stream and one of those years was the time Billy got pissed at some of the slow old players and got a bet going around the club that he could break 80 at Gulf Stream from the tips just using his putter! Billy was not only one of the best players I ever saw he was also one of the best trick shot artists I ever saw. I posted that putter story on here about a year ago; he did it, by the way--shot 79!!

But to date it, I remember sitting in my Dad's livingroom with Billy one day watching the last round at Hilton Head. Billy was Hale Irwin's teammate and roommate at Colorado and Hale was vying to win at Hilton Head. We were watching Hale pussing and grumbling around (those were the days he wore glasses) and Billy says out of the blue; "Hale always was sort of an asshole but no matter what I did I could just never quite beat the guy."

Hale went on to win the tournament and for historical perspective it was the first tournament Hale won on Tour. Billy played golf for about ten more years winning God knows how many Kentucky amateurs and a Colorado amateur and then quit the game. He is now in the Kentucky golf Hall of Fame. If you never met Billy he looked so much like Peter Jacobsen it was spooky. He had the same swing and hit the ball the same way too!

Gulfstream was really a fun place to be and I don't think I appreaciated it as much then as I do now. The pro was Bobby Cruikshank and Betty Jameson taught there every day.


Mike_Cirba

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2001, 07:53:00 AM »
You have to love this site!

Only on GCA would a discussion of the best holes at Merion sway into discussion of;

1) Recent changes to that course (anonymously, as if the objective discussion of the topic itself is verboten).
2) Aronomink's restoration
3) Civil rights issues as they affected Aronomink, Shoal Creek, and the PGA
4) Some ruffled feathers on previous topic
5) Al Campanis and the importance of names
6) Childhood memories and more enjoyable stories from TEPaul and Patrick.  

This is like a wild ride careening out of control and better than any amusement park I can imagine due to the inevitable uncertainty of the route and outcome!  


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2001, 09:17:00 AM »
Sorry about the way the subjects on these topics seem to move around when I get on here. Not only do I seem inclined to write more than anybody, it appears I'm the least capable of sticking to a single subject.

This one appears to have evolved or devolved from the subject pretty well but the worst had to be Fireball Roberts! I can't imagine how I could have gotten from golf architecture to Fireball Roberts! Frankly,  there may not be a man in history who had less to do with golf or was less interested or aware of it than Fireball-the prototypical Daytona Beach greaseball stock car driver. There were some good courses in Daytona and some really great golfers but I'm fairly certain Fireball never got closer than about a mile from any of them.


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #35 on: July 18, 2001, 09:27:00 AM »
Actually Rich Goodale can move the subject around pretty darn well! Things like ancient African architectural thinking and Italian and German artists and philosophers from like the ninth century whose names I can't pronounce etc.

The scary thing about Rich Goodale and his ramblings is they likely have some esoteric but meaningful connection to golf archtitecture! Smart people scare me and they make my head hurt!


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2001, 09:51:00 AM »
Pat:

I can't believe I never ran across your father somewhere down around Florida. Did he have anything at all to do with the islands back in those days (maybe like the 1960s), particularly the Berry Island in the Bahamas like Great Harbor Cay and the course there some of those guys were involved in that has gone through so many iterations over the years? Or may be Pine Tree G.C. My father and some of those guys were involved in the founding of Pine Tree G.C.

If you ever wondered how Dick Wilson and Joe Lee got their hands on courses like Gulf Stream and Seminole to remodel them, it was from some of those guys. I remember my Dad was always talking about Dick Wilson and particularly Joe Lee and all those guys belonged to all those golf courses.

At times like this I really wish I could talk with my Dad to find out how he really felt about golf architecture or maybe what he thought about Donald Ross. Maybe it was just a conincidence or maybe he really liked him because at one time or another he belonged to about 5-6 Donald Ross golf courses.


ForkaB

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2001, 10:30:00 AM »
Tom and Mike

Speaking of amusement rides.....

Did anybody see the news item this morning about the roller coaster that stalled at the very peak of the meanest and fastest roller coaster at Six Flags?

Are there any positions/situations at Merion that fill you with the same sort of anticipation and fear that must have been felt by those unlucky riders?  It sort of reminded me of the feeling I had the first time I played Pebble Beach and got to the 18th hole and realized that the ball I was playing was the same one I had teed off with several hours earlier........

BTW--Tom, I think of your piece on Fireball Roberts often, most recently yesterday playing Olympic with Gib and trying to figure out on each hole how high I had to drive into the bank to make sure that I came out of the curve in pole position.....


Mike_Cirba

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2001, 11:16:00 AM »
Rich;

No, I didn't hear that story, but as a fan of roller-coasters, I can certainly empathize with their plight.

Merion is not a course where fear is ever-present.  It's much more subtle than that.

I think the word that comes to mind right now is "exacting".  Knowing how exacting and precise the requirements are only serves to make them more difficult for the player to execute.

Sure, there are places you can be that are likely to scare the bejeesus out you, but they are not the norm.  

Instead, the norm tends to be little things like the approach to number 8, where there doesn't seem to be a correct distance to leave yourself to  pull off the required shot, from a full iron to a little chip.  

It's knowing that unless you really flirt with OB on holes like 7, the angle for your approach must carry bunkers at an oblique angle with OB behind.

It's sort of a pay me now or pay me later course.  Sooner or later, no matter how cowardly or cautiously you think you're playing a hole, Merion is going to ask you to play a VERY exacting stroke on EVERY hole.  The player can decide if that's from the tee or from the approach or from the green surrounds or putting surface.  

The sort of precision required at Merion becomes mentally taxing to the player.  Thus, you see rounds devolve very quickly around there, and the fact that the course is also a progressive examination with the holes coming longer, tougher, and faster as you get into the round adds to the weight the course places on the player's shoulders and in the player's head.  

Merion also used to be perhaps the world's preeminent course at offering "certain uncertainty" to the golfer.  By that, I mean that most of the trouble (i.e White Faces and rough) was inconsistent and generally penal in nature.  It only took one or two visits to said trouble spots to make them very scary places to avoid in the future, adding to the psychological warfare the course played with the golfer.  (See Nicklaus' bunker play in the 71 US Open).  If anything compared to the gut-wrenching situation faces by those hapless roller-coaster riders at Great Adventure, it might have been playing from some of the treacherous lies and awkward positions that used to be the bunkering situation there.

What's more, they "looked" fierce and got in the golfer's head, as well.  However, I guess everything changes, however regrettably.      


Patrick_Mucci

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2001, 04:40:00 PM »
TEPaul,

My Dad visited Boca Raton and played alot with Tommy Armour and Sam Snead.  He wasn't involved with Pine Tree but new a few people there.

I too would love to talk to him about his golf experiences and his take on architecture.

That's why you have to enjoy your family as much as possible.


Wayne_Tucker

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2001, 05:53:00 PM »
Weakest holes at Merion?

In my opinion #6 is the weakest hole on the East course.

I don't like #6 because, well, there's just nothing particularly great about it.  I'd like the hole better if the fairway were cut closer to the out of bounds (maybe they've changed the hole a bit since the last time I was there, I don't know).

I've never been a particular fan of #9 either - I think what saves #9 from being an "average" hole on a championship-caliber course are the wind patterns (or lack thereof) that exist there.  I've seen a lot of weird things happen to golf balls on that hole...


TEPaul

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #41 on: July 18, 2001, 09:42:00 PM »
I think something important needs to be said about the famous evolutionary bunkers of Merion (the so-called white faces of Merion) that has been heatedly discussed for about a year or more now with Merion's current bunker project going on.

Merion's bunkers before this current bunker project were extremely evolutionary and  were extremely natural looking. That natural look occured because basically the bunkers  just evolved with "natural play sand build up" (some more than others) and the fact that the club never comprehensively remodeled them. As time went on and something needed fixing that specific something got fixed by hand and the rest was just left to evolve. Nothing was ever really done to super manicure them and they just sort of aged over many decades through the application of normal maintenance practices, play and just normal maturation.

"The White Faces of Merion" was always their label probably due more to the dedicatedly specific and visual placement and design of them by Hugh Wilson and William Flynn (and probably to an interesting degree by the  later maintenance of them by the Valentines and maybe much later by Kittleman too). The bunkers of Merion became world famous probably as much for their name and natural beauty as anything else!

The "White Faces of Merion" were one of the golf course's defenses (like any golf course) but their strategic impact might have been as much their name and reputation and the psychology of that as anything else.

What all of you should understand is that despite the fact the Nicklaus may have missed a relatively simple bunker shot in one of them once they never were unusually penal. This is misleading however, because there were some that were oddly inconsistent and remarkably penal for many years. This was probably nothing more than the type of quirky benign neglect that most of us would truly love.

Those that played Merion and knew it well knew where those danger areas of Merion's bunkers were. Some had complex areas to play from and others for some reason were round-wrecking jungles--ie, bunkers to the right of #10 fairway that was a vegetative jungle for many years, bunker to the left of #11 fairway that had significant tree growth  within, the bunker to the right of #14 with another jungle depicted by the famous shot of David Graham with body and club flying skyward!). Then there was the scotch broom that was sprinkled through many of them for many years that made decision making if the ball was caught therein a severe dilemma. There were even bunkers within the quarries that were so penal you were likely to lose your ball.

Other than those bunkers mentioned none of the bunkers at Merion were any more penal than most other really good golf courses with strategic and well designed bunkers. Other than those bunkers mentioned the remainder were far far less penal than almost every single bunker at Pine Valley.

You may not want to hear that my fellow contributors but it's the truth. I know it because I have been playing Merion and its bunkers reacreationally and in tournaments for many years--and PRIOR to the Merion bunker restoration project.

The look of the Merion bunkers and how they may have changed with the bunker restoration project is another matter. Some may forever regret that changed look if the club chooses to never return to their original look or is unable to. But the strategic aspect of the Merion bunkers although some characteristics may have changed may actually net out to make them play a little harder and more strategic in the future.

Merion is apparently not only undergoing a bunker project, they are undergoing a project to return the golf course to what it looked like and hopefully played like in 1930 (the year of Jone's Grand Slam). This overall project involves comprehensive tree removal (a problem Merion never really suffered from), expanded fairways and firmer and faster playing conditions. There is a lot of good in this general direction and overall project and anyone who really knows Merion knows that the real strategic deal of Merion is their greens and how to approach them and recover from around them, coupled with the tee to green topography, the angles and the clever and unusual use of boundaries and OB boundaries. If Merion expands their fairways to what they once were they are flying in the face of those that accuse them of making the course easier simply because the once resistricting rough will not be there to take a shot and an option away. Merion seems comfortable enough with this to just let the player play his shot from challenging angles and if he can pull off a great recovery, so be it!!

I say all of this because I'm convinced that Merion is going in a great general direction with their golf course. The bunker project has been controversial and it may always be but its important to keep in mind that those that are running this project care very much about Merion and they truly want to do the right thing by their great old course. It must also be admitted that they did reach out for research and assistance whereever they thought best and in some cases were shot down. That particular fact still personally rankles me but I try not to dwell on the "only if".

The Green Chairman, Bill Greenwood, who I believe has never been mentioned by name by me has been at this for a long time and he genuinely cares about Merion. He has also been very accommodating to those that have criticized Merion, him and his committee. He has been willing to listen and consider from almost anyone and from anywhere but when one runs a green Committee at a club like Merion you definitely have to consider your membership very carefully. Anyone out there in Golfclubatlas land who doesn't understand this simple fact really doesn't deserve to offer legitimate criticism about anything that goes on at Merion architecturally or otherwise.

So come on, anyone who really wants to know the facts at Merion and wants to offer constructive criticism or suggestions, advice or resource, just do it civily and sensibly--you probalbly will be listened to directly or indirectly.

Maybe you think they've made some mistakes, and maybe they have, who hasn't, like with the bunker project, but few realize how immensely complicated the Merion bunkers really are. But good things are coming and probably a lot of them.

My take is if they do what they're planning to do Merion can be ready for another US Open, despite what some myopics say about the length of the golf course. Merion, the golf course will be ready soon with its original defenses to challenge the best in the world and Merion the golf club has done its part! The next step is up to the USGA.



Tommy_Naccarato

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2001, 04:45:00 AM »
Tom,
Very well written, but unfortunately I disagree with the synopsis of Merion being able to hold another US Open, no matter how romantic the notion.

Mr. Greenwood can go to back posts and see for himself, my calls for such ideas as such, but not after really understanding the following:

1-The out of control performance of the golf ball situation. Something Ron Priotichard has so inteliigently hilighted to this INTELLIGENT body of GCA particpants and readers.

2-The thought that men with NO construction experience what so ever can oversee such a delicate project such as rebuilding the famed White Faces and make it a successful one.

Judging by the photos and other detailed critique, the famed bunkers no longer have the unique shapes of their predecessors, combined with crushed white marble sand that makes them gimmick and even less difficult.

Call it two-dimensional if you will.

What is up with that manicured rough grass around the bunkers? Is that bluegrass or rye? This place is starting to look more like Hartefield National then the speical place I know and have in my heart.

What has happened is thanks to the idea of these knowledgable members, they think THEIR golf course should be a tightly neat garden. What is lost is the "rough at the edges" Merion-look that gave the course its most impressive character.

I can only hope that someday, there will be a group that will see the mistakes of this generation of Merion Committee members and try to restore as much as they can that has been lost. But unfortuantely, the one main thing that has indeed been lost is the heart for which this great golf course has so gently possessed for so many years.

It is just another victim in a long line.


GeoffreyC

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2001, 06:35:00 AM »
Tom Paul

I have never been to Merion   so I certainly will not comment on the work done and how it compares with the way the bunkers looked and played in the past.

However, I understand that the work was originally to be done by Gil Hanse and Bill Kittleman.  I suspect that no one on earth knows the Merion bunkers better than Bill but for some unknown reason they did not get to do the job.  I know from seeing their original work that they do a masterful job of bunkers work and their restoration projects at Fenway and Century were superb and totally in the style of the respective arctitects (Tillinghast and Colt/Alison). Do you (or anyone out there) believe that the project would have worked out any better if the Hanse group were allowed to restore Merion?


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2001, 06:45:00 AM »
Two (rather important) reasons Merion most likely won't hold another Open:

1.  There just isn't enough room to hold the mega-galleries and corporate tent-cities of todays' Opens.

2.  Unless things have changed since the Shoal Creek days, they can't hold an Open unless they change the "other" White Faces of Merion.


Wayne_Tucker

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #45 on: July 19, 2001, 02:00:00 PM »
Tommy,

How much construction experience would someone need simply to make (as I see it) largely aesthetic changes to the course?  Trim out the bunkers, change some mowing lines and cut down a few trees.  I think if they have a very detailed list of the things they want to accomplish there, and a rational reason for doing so, why would construction experience be necessary?

If "construction experience" had been taken into account when Merion was orignially built, would Hugh Wilson have ever gotten the opportunity to design the course?   Fortunately the answer is no, because Hugh Wilson (and later Bill Flynn) obviously put a lot of thought and effort into the routing, and I suspect the restoration is being carried out in much the same thoughtful and deliberate manner.

The other thing I think you're missing here is that just because the bunkers look a certain way at this point in time doesn't mean they will stay that way.  Who's to say that the folks restoring the course won't eventually roughen up the edges again?


Patrick_Mucci

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #46 on: July 19, 2001, 03:41:00 PM »
Scott Borroughs,

Are you ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY stating for the record that there are no minority members as Merion ???


Tommy_Naccarato

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #47 on: July 19, 2001, 06:21:00 PM »
Wayne,
You live in PA. Why don't you go and see for yourself if they know what they are doing?

They are going bey pictures, and if you don't know what you are looking at in the pictures, then it is all the more reason for them to come out looking as if they are flat, featureless and dull. The construction comapny doing the work has reputation for doing shoddy, less then desirable work, which means pride and quality in craftsmanship.

They are in it for one thing. Get in and get out quick and make as many bucks as possible. Proof of this was the orignal Hanse schedule was much longer then your friends a Merion wanted. When they heard how quick Donald Duck and Sons could get done with it.....Couple it with a car salesman overseeing the work.....You have your beautiful new Merion bunkers. I hope you enjoy them.

Certainly time will tell the tale, and I can hardly wait.


Wayne_Tucker

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #48 on: July 19, 2001, 06:44:00 PM »
Tommy, I moved away from PA last August - I live west of Washington DC now. However, it appears I will be making a quick trip back there this weekend.  I grew up about 5 miles from the course, and If I do make it back up there, I'll take a look around.  Maybe snap some pictures if nobody's lookin'.

By the way, thank you for the well-reasoned response - that's what I was looking for. And FYI -- as a civil engineer, I am keenly aware of what a shoddy contractor is capable of doing (and more often NOT doing).

I just hope I won't be horrified, as I consider myself to be in the same traditionalist mould as yourself and many others here.


Mike_Cirba

Merion- favorite/best holes
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2001, 06:50:00 PM »
I'll resist making offering further opinion except to say that I understand the club wanted the work completed in time for the US Amateur in 2005.

From the looks of things, it will be completed in plenty of time....like September 2001.