Bunkers, their future.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was already a fan of sod faced or steep bunkers, but watching the British Open made me yearn for their return to American Golf courses.

Is this likely ?

If the course being built is for private use, what are the drawbacks to this type of bunker ?

[Mike_Rewinski]

Pat, I think that complaints from the golfers are the number one drawback with this kind of bunker.

[rj struthers]

pat

expense and time for revetted bunkers also comes to my mind. Building them is kind of like baking lasagna.

[Craig Disher]

Maintenance costs? We just had new faces put on several of our bunkers.  The cost of doing them with sod was several times more than using grass. We were also told that they would need to be redone in 3-4 years. Near vertical grass faces play the same but they just don't look as good.

[Mark_Fine]

Rolled carpet and/or bunker woll significantly reduces the maintainence, however, both are still very expensive.  Speed of play is probably the biggest issue although that never seems to be a problem in the U.K.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

Patrick,
I remember reading an article that explained how to build them using carpet with soil between the folds. They were supposed to last longer and cost less to construct than sod faces, especially if you could locate remnants in the proper color. I think it was done by Dr. Hurdzan but I'm not sure.

[aclayman]

Pat- I read your question and it opens all types of mental doors, very few of them are bunker related.

I feel as you do, that that style of bunkering is not only beautiful but challenging, too. And it is that challenge, that face of adversity, which keeps those competitive juices flowing.
But,
It is also that difficulty that 95+ percent of all golfers can't extracate themselves from. (Unless they have a good caddie, of course).  
Many of the problems that plague the U.S. game are related to those 95+ percent not having the slightest clue about fundemental ettiquite, let alone how to hit an explosion sand shot.

So,
The does the onus of responsibility lie with, our self proclaimed governing body,  the USGA?
Could they realize that that 200 million dollar war chest won't be necc. if they would just build more pot bunkers and teach people how to play, not only out of them, but well with others, too.

[aclayman]

 

[peter_p]

They're already here at Arcadia Bluffs (MI) and Bandon Dunes to name two.
Private courses might be iffy because I can see the greens' committees being infiltrated by members who don't like them and want them replaced. Also a matter of fairness, and whatever interferes with my prefence must be wrong.
History also plays a part. The revetted bunkers on British courses predate the lives of current members, thus are more impervious to change because of their customs. That doesn't mean much too much on this side of the pond.
Do you see any of the predominant architects adding them? If so, who'd be most likely?

[aclayman]

only casued you used the word predominant...Johnny millers eagle valley, has a hell bunker on one of the par three's thats memorable for its challenge and the look was awesome. And no, the birdie has not altered my opinion.

[Nick_Christopher]

Kingsley has bunkers that are deeper, and more menacing than anything with which you would want to be involved in your round of golf.  They are not sod faced, but rather blend in naturally to the surroundings.  Arcadia's work functionally, but fail artistically.  Sod faced bunkers don't feel right in northern Michigan since they don't blend in naturally.  The landscape is such that natural bunkers exist in the sand dune areas.  These features should be replicated and used wherever possible.  Deep bunkers are one of the best forms of hazards, but they should blend in naturally with the landscape rather than fight it to conform with a certain type of hazard that might be found elsewhere.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Let me alter my post.

If not sod faced, steep faced, penal bunkers.

I don't buy into the pace of play position because GCGC has an abundance of these bunkers and play is at 3.5 hours.

Maintainance wise, I will find out exactly what additional costs MAY be associated with very steep faced bunkers.

Without and impediment or interuption to the flight of the ball, most of todays bunkers do not pose a threat to the better amateur and pro.

Shouldn't a bunker present a physchological as well as a physical challenge to the golfer and their score ?

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick;

If memory serves, I argued the same thing some months back (psychological, visual impact factors being as important as location) and you felt otherwise.  Were you just playing devil's advocate?  

[Mark_Fine]

Patrick,
Having just played a round of golf with Whitten and Stephen Kay and hearing their comments about "severe bunkering", pace of play (whether true or not) is a percieved problem.  

Old saying - Perception is Reality!
Mark

[ERCProV]

What Bunkers?

[aclayman]

Excuse me Pat, but was that Garden City you were comparing municipal golf hell to. Is it public? Is it expensive? Are there not always exception to the rule? And Great point Mark Fine it really is a perception.

[Mike_Cirba]

Intimidating, inconsistent bunkering should not have a negative effect on pace of play.  

I find deep rough, woods, water, and anywhere someone is going to spend a lot of time looking for lost balls to be a much greater factor in laggard play.  

The balls in a bunker...find it, hit it, hit it again if you have to, but then move on.  Much better use of time if you ask me..

[CupCutter]

Mike Hurdzan and Dana Fry build Widow's Walk in Scituate, Ma a few years back and on the short par 3, second hole, earth toned color carpet from a nearby dump was brought in and stacked it up on one of the bunkers...the benefits are grand.  It will not erode, the natural grasses grow freely up thru the carpet fibers...it's actually a very clever idea doncathink?

[Patrick_Mucci]

aclayman,

Please re-read the last paragraph of my intitial post.  I was clear in limiting this discussion to the private sector.

Mark Fine,

Perception is only reality to the uninformed, or insane.

Mike Cirba,

There was a distinction in my position on your earlier post relative to location and visibility.  This post has more to do with the interior configuration of the bunker, rather than its visibility or location.

[Mark_Fine]

Patrick,
I hear you but I'm not sure the far majority of architects do.  I still think many of us are forgetting how and why the average hack plays golf.  Every time I play public golf courses I am brought back to reality.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark Fine,

Yet, every hack wants to play Pine Valley, one of the most penal courses a high handicapper could play.

Golfers seem to delight in an incredible challenge, even if the course is beyond their abilities, and penal.

[T_MacWood]

Grass faced bunkers are wonderful, but they are not at home everywhere. In some locals they become nothing more than a cliche.

[Patrick_Mucci]

With the heavy summer rains in Florida, you would think you would see more grass faced bunkers, rather than flashed bunkers which require substantial maintainance after each rain storm.

Somehow grass faced, rather flat bottom bunkers have always appealed to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

When I played Troon, St Andrews (old) Turnberry and other courses, speed of play didn't seem to be a problem despite the rather penal nature of the bunkers.

It doesn't affect speed of play at GCGC, so why all the fuss about the alleged impact on speed of play.