[T_MacWood]

I recall reading an article on PVGC -- in which the author uncovered in the PV archives that Colt was in Philadelphia to advise both Merion and Atlantic City -- but I don't rememeber the year. I beleive Merion-East was built in 1912.

[TEPaul]

...But in the May 1933 issue of Golf Illustrated, Tillinghast wrote of Colt visiting Pine Valley in 1913 "to collaborate in the final drafting of plans," and then went on to say, "In some respects the course represents a consensus of opinion, carefully edited by the master mind of George Crump, to whom must be given credit in the fullest measure. Certainly one of the world's greatest golf courses, it reflects the genius of one man after all and must ever be a tribute to his memory..."

In Mid-March 1921 the newly formed Advisory Committee met for two days to consider the five page report from Hugh Alison in which his views of the needed improvements to the course were carefully set forth.

...They then proceeded to list all the changes and additions which, in their judgement, were appropriate--AND CONSISTENT WITH GEORGE CRUMP'S EXPRESSED WISHES--

The two day meeting in Mid-March, 1921, attemtped to review the entire eighteen and list all the revisions and refinements that, in the opinion of the participants, would be necessary to bring the course as near to perfection as possible. No such sweeping analysis would ever be made again. There would be alterations to individual holes as circumstances dictated in the years to come--Crump himself had been a firm believer that playing experience might well point the way to worthwhile changes--but the holes would remain where they were and, for the most part what they were. There would never be any wholesale revamping of the course that was so painstakingly dissected by the Advisory Committee in 1921.

[T_MacWood]

TE
From what I understand the 1933 article was review of the founding of PV, based on a serious of chronilogoical articles Tilinghast wrote at the time, with the permission of Crump. What is interesting is how his perception of the course seemed to changes from March 1913 to December 1914 to May 1933.

In March 1913, Tillinghast wrote that Crump had completed four holes and had a plan for the front nine, 10 and 18. And that Colt was coming in to collaborate on final plans.

In December 1914, he now describes a "marvelously fine course, discovered by that celebrated golf architect, Mr. H.S. Colt", with eleven holes in play and seven holes under contruction.

And finally in 1933, "In some respects the course represents a consensus of opinion (including the author who took credit for the design of #7 and #13), carefully edited by the master mind of George Crump, to whom must be given credit in the fullest measure. Certainly one of the world's greatest golf courses, it reflects the genius of one man after all and must ever be a tribute to his memory..."

I have always thought that Colt was called in as more or less a senior advisor. It had been reported that he drew up an initial routing that Cruump did not neccessarily follow. But according to Finegan, and even Tillinghast's writing at the time, his roll may have been greater than previously believed. It would seem extraordinary that Crump would pay Colt $10,000 just for a general routing and/or advise on a plan that he had already devised. That was a great deal of money at that time, MacKenzie's fee for the design/construction over-sight of ANGC and Ohio State(2 courses) in the late 20's was $10,000.

Is it known how or when Colt was initially engaged? I suspect that answer lies some where in the UK, and I would not be surprised if CB Macdonald and Horace Hutchinson were involved.

When was the entire 18 finally completed?

[BillV]

To Jason Henham

If the missing threads return that are currently MIA at 9:15 a.m. on 7-22-2001, before I can search for it and bring it to the top, Tommy's thread can probably be found at a time frame later than July, 2000.  That's my best guess for the last post.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

For some reason it seems that various people have assumed and continue to assume that Harry Colt had more input in the layout and design of Pine Valley than he did and continue to give him more credit than he deserves.

I think there are a variety of reasons for this that are very interesting. Nevertheless, the more one analyzes the two histories of Pine Valley (Shelley's and Finegan's) and the research they did and the research material that is available, the more one tends to be inclined to agree with their similar conclusions about Colt's input and also Crump's.

Basically their conclusions are supported by the writings of various members (including Crump's) and some architects and also news reports of the time.

The thing that irrefutably sets the facts and the truth though, in my opinion, is the documented timelines!

We know, for instance, that the routing of Pine Valley particularly all the holes other than 12-15 were done (routed) by Crump PRIOR to Colt coming to Pine Valley (and possibly before Crump had ever met Colt). The reason we know this is because that site plan (routing) hangs in Pine Valley today! And from it you can clearly see that that routing is remarkably similar to the way the course has always been.

There has always been this rumor that a Colt routing exists somewhere but noone that I know of has ever seen it. What Colt did was individual hole drawings (and very detailed and beautiful ones) for the holes that Crump had layed out. And it is also clear to Shelley and Finegan (two members who had been there for many many decades) that those Colt hole drawings have some similarities to the individual holes of Pine Valley but many more differences.

So only two conclusions can be drawn from these undeniable timelines vis-a-vis a Colt routing. 1. That if he did do one and it has any similarity to the way the course is then he must have copied Crump's! 2. If he did one that is not a copy of Crump's then Crump clearly did not follow Colt's! It is almost impossible to draw any other conclusion.

What seems much more likely is what Shelley and Finegan have concluded and that is that Colt supplied Crump with some ideas about the particulars of the holes (green sizes, shapes, tees and bunker schemes) that Crump had already routed and conceived (and likely cleared and started constructing). Essentially that is what the undeniable timelines are telling us. And the fact that many of the details of the holes of Pine Valley appear to be different than Colt's meticulous drawings would certainly seem to indicate that Crump did not follow much of Colt's detailed advice and concept. On the other hand, everybody is aware of Colt's advice and solution to the problem of both routing and designing hole #5!

As for the similarity of Pine Valley to Sunningdale and it's "heathland" look it should be remembered that two years previous both Crump and Joe Baker spent three months in Europe both playing and studying a number of courses including Sunningdale and Walton Heath. It is also undeniable (documented) that at that early date (1910) Crump very much had the dream of finding a site and constructing a golf course in the pine woods of New Jersey (accessible from Philadelphia).

As for the apparent fee that Crump payed Colt ($10,000), that could easily be apocryphal, as Finegan implies! And as such, that bit of information is exactly the kind that such as us should not take as gospel and then make an inaccurate assumption like, therefore Colt must have done more than he actually might have!

Finegan states that the evidence of that fee was from a remark in Baker's memoires written thirty seven years after the fact! I would love to see the wording of that remark because it is certainly possible that Baker's remark might have been transposed incorrectly or possibly just misunderstood or inaccurate. I say this because it seems highly likely that just seven months before meeting with Colt it is likely that Crump had payed Sumner Ireland approximately $10,000 to purchase the original 184 acres that was Pine Valley!

Another possible reason that it has been assumed for so long that Colt did a routing for Pine Valley is his actual quote in Golfer's Illustrated (in 1914!) where he mentioned that, "I had the honour to lay out the course at Pine Valley." Again it is very common (even for people like us) to misinterpret what Colt meant by "laying out a course" and consequently to make a fundamentally incorrect assumption and then to run with it forever!

We can all imagine that Colt could have just as easily meant "laying out a course" was his hole drawings and not a routing plan! But someone might have just assumed that by "laying out" he MUST have meant a routing plan and so a rumor was rooted forever.

But still there is no denying the fact that Pine Valley is not and never has been particularly close to anything that is left with us that Colt did. Of course, as Finegan mentioned, there is no way of knowing what Colt might have said to Crump during those approximately two weeks at Pine Valley in May-June of 1913. All that could mean to me is that Colt might have given Crump some additional advice that wasn't much like Colt's hole drawings!

There are even some who seem to feel that to deny the accuracy of Colt's remark; "I had the honour or laying out the course at Pine Valley", is to call into question Colt's honesty. Again, nothing could be farther from the truth, particularly when one takes into consideration that Colt made that remark not long after departing Pine Valley and frankly he may have had no way of knowing what Crump had done after he departed as far as sticking to anything he may have recommended or drawn. And it may also be possible that Colt never saw Pine Valley again!

So it seems to me that all the evidence and documentation and timelines are there staring us in the face altough previous to Shelley and Finegan noone had really taken the time to analyze them that closely.

There are a couple of other reasons that people may have come to assume that Colt did more for Pine Valley than he actually did.

One reason is one that I believe Geoff Shackelford has toyed with and that is that Crump may have purposely given Colt more credit than he deserved simply to add some credibility (and don't forget their meeting was very early) to his course, it's ability to draw members and such. Colt was a very well known architect and it may have been simply his reputation that Crump was looking to primarily use, particularly since Crump may have felt, despite his extraordinary ideas, that he may be perceived as just an amateur.

And secondly, that very idea of Crump being an amateur and a first time designer seems to stick with him to this day. About a year ago I think it was Tom Doak who either stated or strongly implied that Colt did more simply because he was the professional and Crump was the amateur. Again, without evidence to the contrary, that's a dangerous assumption to make, in my opinion! Particularly when it is clear that almost ever architect that was a contemporary of Crump's eventually gave him the credit for  Pine Valley that they felt he deserved and that seems to be for most everything that Pine Valley was then and is now!

[Tim_Weiman]

TE Paul:

I agree with your comments about PV and notions about exclusivity ("respect and understand golf").  Thanks for addressing an issue I initially chose to avoid.

My first visit to PV was for the Walker Cup in 1985.  A friend and I called the USGA asking about ticket availability.  We were told to call the club directly.

When we did, whoever we spoke to asked that we write a letter explaining why we wanted to attend the Walker Cup.

Apparently, they liked our letter because months later we received notice that there was one more thing: we had to send $10 for the tickets.

I know of no other venue which handled things in the same way and clearly what it came down to was "is this something you really want to do.....is this something you would really appreciate".

We were treated very warmly during the event, as I have been on subsequent visits.  True, not everyone can play the course whenever they want, but the actual experience is really....appropriately, about golf not social standing.

By the way, I have about twenty club histories.  No other club history pays as much tribute to key employees including the caddies.  To my mind, that's the right spirit.

[TEPaul]

Tim:

You're so dead on about what you said there about Pine Valley and particularly the people who work there. It seems to me that most of them have been there as long as I've known the place (maybe about 20 years now) and what neat people they are! You just come to feel you want them so much to be your friend--and they are! Lenny, Jack, Sly, Mel, all of them and of course Charlie has to run one of the tightest ships in the world of golf!

Their membership make-up is very unusual and really impressive in its variety and their membership policies although not in the slightest understood by someone like me seems to fit perfectly with everything the club represents. It seems to be strictly on a need to know only basis which probably gives them the latitude to do whatever they see fit for the culture of the place which is clearly love and respect for the game and the same for the golf course!

Maybe they were beset upon by some bigwig corporate types now and then but you've got to expect that with the #1 course in the world. Their attitude about even that seems perfect to me though since it is clear that no matter who you might be or think you are their culture of love of the game and the course will never allow anyone to get thinking he can alter or lord it over that!

It is also possible that Pine Valley just may have an exit policy as little understood as their entrance policy and again that seems perfect to me since above it all is again that culture of love of the game and the course no matter who you might be!

And it seems to me that even over the entire culture of the club which is very cool is the sort of everpresent aura of George Crump and come on my fellow GCA purists, how cool is that?

Some do say that their continuous reverence for Crump has made them give him more credit than he may deserve but I think it is clear from the facts of the design and construction evolution in their history books and some of these posts on here that he deserves the credit he gets.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

To answer your question of when was Pine Valley opened for play or when was the 18 holes completed?

It was basically in three stages. Holes #1-10 and #18 opened for play on Nov. 7, 1914. Holes #11, #16 & #17 opened in the first half of 1916 and holes 12-15 opened at some point in 1920.

In March of 1921 the Advisory Committee (William Fownes, Simon Carr, Joseph Bole and non-member Hugh Alison) met to discuss and decide how to put the finishing touches on the course that they believed Crump had intended  to do.

[T_MacWood]

TE
I think the reason Colt's name continues to come up is because the documentation of what transpired is a combination of a few magazine articles(some contradictary), faulty memories and educated theories. Even Tillinghast, who is probably the strongest proponent of Crump's ultimate credit, wrote in late 1914 that Colt was responsible for discovering the layout -- that is difficult to explain.

The thought that Colt was engaged in a design capacity and payed $10,000 to design a course that was already routed and designed (and if he did draw up plans for all 18 individual holes it seems certain he was paid a design fee) is difficult to understand.

And the idea that he was only brought in to lend credability doesn't seem to make sense either. For one Colt was not exactly a household name, he was respected in local circles, notably by the very influential Hutchinson, but I doubt he was well known in the US. In fact in 1913 he had a limited portfolio and was still moonlighting as an architect -- he was Secratary of Sunningdale. And even if he was brought in to lend stature, wouldn't his involvement have been publicized and emphasized -- that doesn't seem to be the case. Is there any evidence that Crump was short of funding? I understood he had formed a syndicate before starting the project and had considerable personal funds through the sale of his hotel.

Another reason for Colt's name coming up is Thomas's dual credit to 'Crump and Colt', if Colt's roll was minor in Thomas's mind, I wouldn't think he would've given him shared responsibility.

Another interesting fact is after Crump's death Colt is brought in again to advise, in the form of his partner Alison. They could have continued to carry out the work in house, or they could have asked one of several local experts Tillinghast, Thomas, Wilson or Flynn to advise, or they could have called in Macdonald, Travis or Ross. It would seem there was a strong connection overseas with Colt.

Charles Price wrote a well researched article on PVGC in 1985 in which he repeats many of the findings of Finegan, including the hole drawings, the 1933 article and his consultation with Travis and others. He concludes that PVGC was the amalgam of all Crump had learned from the individual advice he had been given. But he admitted the genesis of PV had been obscured by "locker room historian" and following the location of the site the history of PV becomes very hazy.

One of the interesting facts Price uncovered at PVGC was that Colt was in Philadelphia to advise Merion and Seaview in 1913.

[TEPaul]

Although I don't know it I would bet that Colt advised Merion and Seaview on the same stop in this area when he spent the time with Crump. It wasn't as if he could just take a BOAC over or anything.

As for Colt's reputation, I really don't agree with you. I think with Crump and his friends and many of the people they were probably trying to tap for membership that Harry Colt had a fantastic reputation. And don't forget that Crump may be called an amateur but he was a helluva golfer with many connections to architects and well known people in the game and Crump and many of those he knew certainly had an understanding and familiarity with Sunningdale--since many of them had been there--including Crump two years previous.

I really don't think it took Colt to tell the world and certainly Crump that there was a distinct similarity between the natural site of Pine Valley and Sunningdale and that fact alone could have been another very good reason Crump contacted Colt--just as Jones felt that MacKenzie had such a familiarity with TOC--the model Jones wanted to follow.

But all those things aside how do you explain the fact that Crump's routing of the golf course was done before Colt ever arrived? That's an undeniable fact and you can see it for yourself. And how do you explain the fact that the holes of Pine Valley have never looked much like Colt's hole drawings?

[T_MacWood]

TE
Colt was no doubt well respected at the time, but not the heavy weight he would later become. He had only been at it seriously since around 1905-06, although his biography states he began 1907. He had hooked up with Shanks Mowing Machines as an agent on the side. And in 1909 was an adviser with Suttons, the famous grass seed company. Those connection were probably what got him started. As secretary of the famous Sunningdale, he was in an important position, but Sunningdale was a Willie Park, Jr. design. His most note worthy early designs:

1907-Alwoodley (where he met MacKenzie)
1908-Stoke Poges, Le Touquet(Fr)
1909-Leamington&County, Newquay, Northamptonshire, Swinley Forest
1910-Denham
1911-St.Andrews-Eden
1912-Toronto (1st trip to N.America), St.Georges Hill, Blackmoor

The author of his biography claims he first visited PVGC during his first journey overseas in 1912, but I'm not sure what facts he is basing that upon. I do not believe there is evidence to support that conclusion. Colt had a very good portfolio, but he was only beginning to gain a reputation and was still building momentum.

I did not know Crump had been to Sunningdale in 1911. I knew Crump's father was English; I suspected he had connections in the UK. What were the circumstances of that trip and did he meet Colt?

Are Colt's hole plans based on Crump's routing?

[Paul Turner]

Around 1913 Colt was probably actively searching for work in the USA (rather than just being approached by clients).  Because work within the UK had almost completely dried up due to WW1.  

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

One of the reasons Crump went to Europe in 1910 with Joe Baker was undoutably to study European Golf Courses. He saw most of the good ones of the day including analyzing Sunningdale. You see in 1910 he was thinking of building a course in New Jersey, convenient to Philadelphia, for the purpose of primarily playing winter golf.

Yes it would seem from Colt's hole drawings that he was using Crump's routing. Again as Finegan and Shelley have said it appears he gave Crump hole drawings that were advisory as to green sizes, shapes, bunker schemes, tee placement etc. Crump's routing at that time was probably something in the form a stick routing, but the way the holes move on the site is apparently the way they are now, and the routing was done before Colt arrived. Not all of them but certainly the front nine and possibly #10 & #18. A little latter #11, #16-17 and quite a lot later 12-15, I believe. Next time I'm there I will look at the original Crump site plan (routing).

[ForkaB]

So Colt worked for "Shanks Mowing Machines?"  Any connection to the Shanks company that dominated the Golden Age of urinals in the UK?  I can't tell you how many times I've missed it to the right after a session in the 19th hole of some of the best and greatest courses in the British Isles..........

[Steve Wilson]

World War I  began in August of 1914, a year after Colt arrived.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Have you seen Crump's routing? Is it dated?

Who was Joe Baker? And is there any information about where they went and who they may have met?

Have you seen Colts book Golf-Course Architecture (1920), it has photographs of the completed fifth, 10th, 18th and the raw site of the 15th tee?

[rj struthers]

TEPaul
am very impressed by your knowledge and respect for PV. I worked there for almost ten years and read almost anything that I could find when I was a caddy and later as assistant pro. I have still not found a better golf place, although Sand Hills and Seminole felt similar in many ways. the Valley has none of the pretentiousness that many of the "great golf courses" have, where pedigree matters. The "Valley" is the genuine real deal to me, and even now the members and guests I caddied for talk about golf shots and fun times. John Ott always talks to me about some of the shots I hit when I played with him, as only a seriously crooked hitter with imagination could atempt to pull off at the most penal of courses. Although i don't remember many of my shots, I'ff never forget how excited Ben Crenshaw was after hitting a wicked banana off # 2 tee and still making birdie!

As to green speed on #2. i know that this is one of the most fascinating greens ever built. No matter how fast the green was there was always a way for the perfect putt to let you get down in two. Sometimes you might have to aim it left of the hole when right seemed appropriate but if you really thought, and had a burglars touch it wasn't impossible. As to the Valley, I am its biggest fan almost twenty years removed!

[TEPaul]

Archie:

I can tell you there are a lot of people at the Valley today that are a big fan of yours too.

Tom MacW:

I think what you need to do is read both Shelley's and particularly Finegan's books--for some reason I thought you had. These two books are where I'm getting everything I've been saying to you-well almost everything.

People like Joe Baker, Simon Carr and Bill Smith are central to the overall story and the understanding of what went on at Pine Valley from the very beginning until well past Crump's death. They were his extremely close friends who he apparently talked to about almost everything he thought and did at Pine Valley. These men are essential to the understanding of Crump and the chronology of events during the dream, planning and construction of the course. Their accounts of conversations and discussions with Crump were also central to the completion of the course after he died in the vehicle of The 1921 Advisory Committee which basically worked off their notes and rememberances which seem remarkably consistent.

Shelley and particular Finegan have simply pieced all this together with all the articles (newspapers and otherwis) and rememberances of the various architects you've cited as well as a few very pertinent dates and facts that have so far apparently been missed or not accurately considered when it comes to analyzing Colt's exact contribution to Pine Valley.

As for Crump's routing Finegan says this: "By March (1913) he had developed a site plan (routing). This preliminary routing sheme is, to a considerable degree, akin to the actual design of the  course that is played today, the most obvious deviation being in the 12th, 13th and 14th holes. It hangs unobtrusively in the clubhouse, quietly emblematic of Crump's sure instinct for uncovering the finest holes the land might contain."

As I've said a few times Colt did not arrive at Pine Valley until May-June of 1913. Club records apparently show this according to Finegan.

You can also see clearly in the tone of both Shelley's and Finegan's books that neither is attempting to give Crump credit for something he may not have done or thought of. Both Pine Valley Chroniclers are simply laying out the facts more comprehensively and clearly than anyone else has.

And again, in those two chronicles are two incredibly salient facts when it comes to what Colt did or at least what Crump took from Colt. 1. Crump's routing plan (which is Pine Valley) preceded Colt's visit and, 2. The Colt hole drawings have some similarities but many differences to what Pine Valley's holes are today.

Despite numerous reports from other architects and newspaper accounts and also years of "lockerroom historians", as you say, as well as endless speculation about fees and reputations and such, what do those few facts and that date say about Colt's contribution and Crump's? It is pretty clear to me!

[T_MacWood]

TE
I've read neither book, they are difficult to come by. I had seen a book several years ago devoted to PVGC, many photos past and present, but only a brief text.

I guess I'm more skeptical/curious than most. Not that I don't think most of the facts point toward Crump's clear responsibility, but that there have been many discoveries over the years that lead me me to believe these stories are rarely simple and cut & dried. For example Pebble Beach for years was the work of two amateur designers, true but not exactly -- the story is much more complicated. Or Cypress Point, if you look at the original MacKenzie routing sketch and compare it to the present course you might conclude that MacKenzie had nothing to do with that course. Or the story of Ohio State GC that has been told over the years. Or the newly discovered U of Michigan routing -- which was clearly drawn, signed and dated by Maxwell. The more you investigate these things, the more often than not the most interesting facts reveal themselves. I'm just looking to fill in some of the gaps, to see if there might not be some interesting facts to reveal.

Is there a photo of Crump's original routing and Colt's hole sketches in Shelly or Finegan's book?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

There aren't any photos of Crump's original site scheme (routing) nor Colt's hole drawings in either book (except a photo of the outside of the notebook and also hole #17--very different than what the hole is today). Apparently Colt's routing hangs in the clubhouse as Finegan said in his book.

But it is clear that both Finegan and Shelley have looked at and analyzed both carefully. Finegan is a long time member and very dedicated to these things and is also an excellent researcher. Shelley, of course, was a member for well over 50 years and lived at Pine Valley.

I understand the interesting and sometimes hazy architectural credits and attribution at Pebble, Cypress and the other courses that you mentioned, but you have to be careful, in my opinion, if you doubt what went on at Pine Valley simply by using those courses' architectural histories as an analogy.

Crump's clear dedication to his project from the very beginning to his death is vastly different than those courses and the time alone he spent at Pine Valley is probably unparalleled in architectural history. He lived on the site in a tent for a time and then in his bungalow. This time appears to be for a number of years and totally solid time there. It seems to be more site time and hands-on oversight and contribution than anything I've ever heard of--maybe far more than C.B MacDonald at NGLA!

But even those facts, although they seem to indicate that he was the absolute driving force in everyway there, don't really explain exactly what he did and didn't do architecturally. But the site plan (routing) and its date explain a lot, in my opinion. And the hole drawings of Colt and the differnences in them explain even more, particularly when it comes to what at Pine Valley were ever Colt's concepts and ideas and what were Crump's. I just can't see how anyone could draw another conclusion from those facts and that date.

Crump, as almost everyone knows, was not in the slightest bit averse to consulting and collaborating with almost anyone he felt had good or interesting ideas and it's plain that where he adopted someone's advice they were given full credit. Still today among the Pine Valley members who know the course this is true when it comes to Colt, Tillinghast, Thomas, Flynn, Maxwell and a few others!

The more I get into this (and I feel the same will be true of you) the more it will become apparent that Crump not only deserves the credit he gets for Pine Valley but that it is likely that he deserves even MORE!

It is not unusual at all to me that many people may have looked at that original routing scheme of Crump's in the clubhouse and not even considered it in the context of what Colt did or didn't do. When looking at it who would really be considering that Colt arrived later and what that meant? Who was really thinking of it in the context of Colt's hole drawings? Probably noone with the exception of Shelley and Finegan--and that's why their chronicles are good ones!

Another thing that few people appreciate about Crump and Pine Valley is that he began the project desiring a particular course balance scheme! In other words he wanted particular types of holes in particular places to test a golfer in a particular balanced fashion. This is undeniable and all his friends are aware of this basic routing and construction desire of Crump's. One also has to appreciate that Crump had to basically find these types of holes out there somehow and in that basic balance. He had mules and manual labor and did not have the luxury of the future D-8 to just make  something where he may have wanted it!

This kind of requirement and the lack of available machinery to assist him and pull it off is key to understanding what Crump was doing out there all that time. This kind of modus operandi in that day and age is a prescription for getting stuck quite easily. I think you have to have a basic understanding of the difficulties of routing and also how to apply that particular balance to land with a routing to really appreciate the problems involved. In no way is it easy and really is akin to a massive jigsaw puzzle, particularly with his type of modus operandi and in his time with its lack of equipment.

This, to me, is the reason he likely got stuck for so long on 12-15, particularly how and where to fit the par 3 #14 into the jigsaw puzzle when much of the puzzle had already been done. We know that #13 green site apparently made the remainder come together but it is likely that the way that last link (#14) was done may have been by far the most massive engineering feat on the entire course and to make the lake and fill in the site for #14 green may have been as expensive as the rest of the entire course. This last link may also be what Crump really dipped into his own pocket for.

Understanding the little details and the finer points is becoming fascinating to me and I think this has been a great discussion. I don't believe in making pat assumptions about these things and it seems that what Shelley and Finegan have done (IF YOU ANALYZE IT CORRECTLY) has made most of what went on a Pine Valley very understandable.

[TEPaul]

I meant Crump's routing plan in the first paragraph above. I thought I should correct that typo--jeeesus, I don't want to start another Colt rumor!

[T_MacWood]

TE
Any idea why the drawing were not included in the histories?

Herbert Warren Wind wrote a very detailed article regarding PVGC and its history in the early 50's. Evidently Baker was still alive and in his 90's at the time. But anyway in the article he writes about the genisis of the 5th hole. Evidently Crump had laid out the first 4 holes, but was stumped and was trying to find a way to get to higher ground across that valley. He and Colt walked the property, when, as the story goes, he discover the 5th. Does Crump's routing have the 5th in its current position?

On seperate note were you aware that Crump's father and older brother were both Architects? His father hailed form Cheltenham, England.

[ForkaB]

Hmmmmmmmm......Crump's family was from Cheltenham which is suspiciously and intriguingly close to......

PAINSWICK!

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

I had no idea that anyone else in Crump's family was an architect and although I heard Crump's father was English I did not know where he came from in England.

I don't know why the Colt drawings or the Crump site plan (routing) are not photographed and in Finegan's or Shelley's books. If I were to guess, though, it's probably as simple as the fact that the individual holes are a little hard to photograph (for Finegan or Shelley) since they may be in an attached notebook. There is a photo in Finegan's book of the cover of the notebook and hole #17 though. It was probably done that way just to show how artistic and detailed his drawings were--Finegan makes a particular point of that! And maybe to also give the reader an example of how the drawings were different than the golf course by just using one example--#17. I'm sure if Finegan had any idea that you would be questioning his conclusions, he probably would have gone to the trouble to have all 18 holes photographed, including Crump's site plan!

We are making a big issue of this Colt/Crump thing but both Finegan and Shelley did not really fixate on it--they just pointed out a few simple facts that seem obvious to draw a conclusion and make a point. I believe what they did is about all they really needed to do. Just to finalize this discussion though I will make a point of going down there and asking if I can see Colt's hole drawings and Crump's site plan--and to see if it's dated.

Yes, I did know what Crump planned for #5 and how Colt solved the problem! Crump had the hole routed the same way only the shot was much shorter, just over the lake to the higher ground probably somewhere in the vicinity of where the road crossing the hole is today. Colt lengthened the hole and placed the green where it is today (to get it near #6 tee) and he is given full credit for that by everyone and certainly by Crump.

Why didn't Crump see that hole the way it is today? Good question, but the likely answer is he probably needed to be convinced that it could actually be reasonable at that length. Apparently Crump became very proud of how #5 turned out and loved hitting shots to it with his driver that was a famous club that he had forever and a club that even had a name known to all his friends! Crump's inability to see #5 Colt's way is probably not unlike Mackenzie being convinced by Marion Hollins that #16 Cypress could be reasonable as it is instead of what MacKenzie had in mind there.

[T_MacWood]

TE
I don't believe I questioned Finegan's findings, I was simply asking for the explanation to certain inconsistancies. For all I know Finegan's conclusions are right on the money. It seemed to me that many of the explanations seem to be more theory and speculation than fact. Theory and speculation are fine, but they shouldn't be confused with fact. I'm more interested in uncovering the facts, whatever they may be. It is useful to know who did what and it is important to document those facts if at all possible. I'm sure there is a good reason for the exclusion of the drawings, but I would think those sketches would be among the most important documents regarding the design of the golf course.

Crump's father was originally an accountant, who moved briefly from Pa. to Ohio for training as a carpenter/builder. After returning to Phila, he opened a construction firm, among is most important projects were the construction of the Union League clubhouse and the U. of Penn Hospital. He also designed and built the Globe and Atlas Hotels, as well as many homes in Phila and NY. He also designed and built the Colonnade Hotel, which he owned and managed. In 1880 he leased the hotel to his sons and he more or less retired to his farm in Media. His oldest son was also an architect. Ironically Cheltenham is right next to Worchestshire where Colt learned the game as a boy at Malvern Common.

It is interesting to look at Colt and Alison's advertisement from the late 20's found in the Shackelford's Golden Age. They list their most significant American and European designs. The courses they excluded are as interesting as the courses they included.

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