Pine Valley history Book...

[TEPaul]

"TE
Is it possible that the stick drawing was made in May 1913 by Colt & Crump?"

Tom:

Anything is possible of course but it is both highly unlikely and also highly illogical if one understands what was going on out there in the first half of 1913 before Colt arrived in the beginning of June. It's even possible that Crump made that stick routing on January 23rd 1918 but again one would wonder why.

If  you sit down, take a deep breath and start to consider AT THE VERY LEAST the differences on the stick routing between the 2nd hole and the 5th hole (what is not on the stick routing map compared to the blue/red line map) and the blue/red line map I feel relatively confident you may begin to figure this out.  

And perhaps while you're at it you may want to reconsider the meaning of that note on the top of the stick routing map vis-a-vis Crump.  

[TEPaul]

"Based on your previous post I think I can guess what you'll say. You'll say the reason its not on there is because the dip was outside the property lines...which was another good reason to hire Colt."

No, Tom MacWood, I'd never have thought of a reason like that but that's an interesting guess and interesting speculation on your part.  

[T_MacWood]

"TE
Is it possible that the stick drawing was made in May 1913 by Colt & Crump?"

Tom:

Anything is possible of course but it is both highly unlikely and also highly illogical if one understands what was going on out there in the first half of 1913 before Colt arrived in the beginning of June. It's even possible that Crump made that stick routing on January 23rd 1918 but again one would wonder why.

If  you sit down, take a deep breath and start to consider AT THE VERY LEAST the differences on the stick routing between the 2nd hole and the 5th hole (what is not on the stick routing map compared to the blue/red line map) and the blue/red line map I feel relatively confident you may begin to figure this out.  

And perhaps while you're at it you may want to reconsider the meaning of that note on the top of the stick routing map vis-a-vis Crump.  

Finally, now we are getting somewhere. Don't worry I've looked at the similarities and differences the stick drawing has to Tilly's early description of the course and Colt's final plan. I think a case could be made for either arguement...which is why I've been trying emphasize that no one really know for sure who made it and when. And also tyring to show there is difference between fact and educated guess.

[TEPaul]

"I sense there's some information that Tom Paul knows that he isn't willing to divulge here.  
Would that be a fair assessment?"

MikeC:

Does a good poker player show his hand before all the bets are in?  

[Brian Phillips]

I think Tom Paul has learnt a lot more in just the last few years (even this year..) of the development of the course.  

Colt was very much involved and as Tom says if the club were to name two architects it would be Colt and Crump but if they wanted to name one it would be Crump and that is fair. However, Colt's original routing is very close to what is there today ...in my humble architect's opinion

 

[TEPaul]

Tom MacWood:

Finally we're getting somewhere??  

Again, you think whatever you'd like to about who did what and when at Pine Valley. Feel free to call anything at all speculation. I have no problem with that at all.

If and when I write a creation report about Pine Valley we'll see how it stands up to scrutiny, and from anyone. I have no problem with you, or anyone else trying to critique it or take its accuracy apart.

I like to deal with all the available evidence and then analyze what is most logical and likely about any and all of it. That is not to say there may not be another scenario in the realm of possibility.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to video and audio tape every day of Crump's life and times at Pine Valley and he didn't exactly keep much of anything as a diary to go by (or did he? ) so I can only go on all the available materail evidence there and what was written by others both before and after Harry Colt spent that one week there including what-all he left there.  

[TEPaul]

Brian:

What you said is a fair statement but what do you mean by Colt's original routing?

What is that? Are you implying some routing by Colt that contains nothing of what was done in a routing or design sense before Colt arrived? If so, such a routing does not exist simply because Pine Valley did not develop that way. That would also mean that Tillinghast would have to be considered a man who totally and accurately was capable of predicting the future.  

I believe it would be worthwhile for you to explain what you said about who may've done that routing map that we bought--or more appropriately who may not have done it. I think that's interesting in the timeline of all this particularly regarding Colt's whereabouts in July 1913 (the date on that map).

[Paul_Turner]

"Tom
I can measure the distance from the 11th green to 15th green and compare the blue/red topo with a modern aerial...the green marked "XV" is in the right place."

Paul:

That would be fine. Let me know what distance you come up with that way and how you do the scaling and then when next there I'll just go out there and walk off the distance between those two greens a couple of times. I hope you aren't thinking of trying to deny the reality of what the distance on the actual ground really is.  

It's about 200 yards (real ones!).

I think comparing where the 15th green is realtive to the 12th is confusing you.  The whole fairway on the topo is shifted a bit to the left (as played) compared with what's there now.

Look at the contours (in blue) on the topo, you can see the green is on a ridge not in a bowl.

[TEPaul]

Paul:

I think you will see the 15th green on the second topo and the Colt map isn't even 200 yards from the 11th while the distance between the present 11th and 15th green could be 250 yards. I think the greens on those maps are at least fifty yards right, low and long of the present green.

I know we can resolve this but I'm sorrry to tell you I can't access your stick routing and blue/red line overlay, it's on another computer I can't access. Could you send it to me again?

[T_MacWood]

"TE
Is it possible that the stick drawing was made in May 1913 by Colt & Crump?"

Tom:

Anything is possible of course but it is both highly unlikely and also highly illogical if one understands what was going on out there in the first half of 1913 before Colt arrived in the beginning of June. It's even possible that Crump made that stick routing on January 23rd 1918 but again one would wonder why.

Colt arived in May.

If  you sit down, take a deep breath and start to consider AT THE VERY LEAST the differences on the stick routing between the 2nd hole and the 5th hole (what is not on the stick routing map compared to the blue/red line map) and the blue/red line map I feel relatively confident you may begin to figure this out.  

I think the differences in 2nd and 5th strengthen the arguement for those who believe the stick routing was made prior to Colt. But it is hardly conclusive. It could be an early routing attempt by Colt & Crump prior to recommending changes to the 2nd and 5th. Its not unusual for architects to come up with and work through several routings.

And perhaps while you're at it you may want to reconsider the meaning of that note on the top of the stick routing map vis-a-vis Crump.  

That is also a strong point for it being a Crump routing, although there is no way to date the notations and its possible they were made while he and Colt were routing the course in May.

Points for it being a Colt early routing attempt:

* There appears to be two hands involved on the map

* The 6th and 7th holes as described by Tilly in the April issue of American Golfer do not appear on the map. Not only did Tilly describe the first seven holes, he said they were cleared, under construction and nearly ready for seeding.

* Timing. The topo map on which the stick drawing was sketched was made in March 1913. Tilly most likely wrote his description found in the April issue in March which means construction on those holes began prior to that time, so the stick drawing could not be an early iteration (because the topo wasn't made until March). Its unlikely Crump would be re-routing the first seven holes while at the same time constructing them.

* There is evidence of tinkering with the 3rd hole on the stick routing....the postion of the green. We know that hole was altered after Colt arived. During the early construction phase (pre-Colt) it was a hole that Tilly described as being based on Mid-Surrey. In some of the photos of the hole as it was built after Colt, you can see what appears to be mounding off to the right of the green.

Who made the stick map is open to debate, but I think Colt has a very strong case.

[TEPaul]

"I think the differences in 2nd and 5th strengthen the arguement for those who believe the stick routing was made prior to Colt. But it is hardly conclusive. It could be an early routing attempt by Colt & Crump prior to recommending changes to the 2nd and 5th. Its not unusual for architects to come up with and work through several routings."

Tom MacWood:

The differences in the 2nd and the 5th certainly do strengthen the argument the stick routing was made prior to Colt's arrival. I tihink it would be both highly unlikely and completely illogical for one to assume that if Crump was given those topo maps in March 1913 that he just sat around for a few months and did nothing with them or nothing at all on the ground waiting for Colt to arrive. We don't even know if Crump was aware in March or April when Colt would arrive or even if he would come. Tillinghast said the fact that Colt would come was announced in May.

Not to mention that note on the top of the stick routing that states:

"Am not sure if the greens are marked on the map where I marked them on the ground---GAC"

If that's not great evidence that Crump laid out that initial routing I can't imagine what could be with the exception of perhaps a video tape of him doing it.  

Colt apparently spent a week or a bit more at Pine Valley at the end of May or the beginning of June 1913.

Furthermore this is Tillinghast's report:

"In March, 1913, I published a full description of work already accomplished and described in detail the first four holes, which had been completed entirely to George Crump's own plan and personally directed building, and also the plan of the first nine holes and the tenth and eighteenth, all of which remanined as George determined with the exception of the ninth. In May IT WAS ANNOUNCED that the British golf architect, H.S. Colt was in Canada and that probably he would visit Pine Valley to collaborate in the final drafting of plans..."

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom Mac,

I have never seen the multi-colored topo that either of you are refering to and have no idea when it was made and by whom, yet there is a bit of arguing going on about very exact dates of things written and work accomplished and that I can speculate on. I believe your assumptions in what you wrote are mistaken in several ways.

Though I am uncertain how they would effect either your or Tom Paul's arguments, I believe they might.

You wrote, "* The 6th and 7th holes as described by Tilly in the April issue of American Golfer do not appear on the map. Not only did Tilly describe the first seven holes, he said they were cleared, under construction and nearly ready for seeding."

This appears to imply that these 7 holes were to the point where they were finished with the exception of putting down seed, and that isn't correct; and not correct by a long shot.

Tilly actually wrote, "Already seven of the holes are opened up [to what extent?] and rapidly cleared fairways being prepared for seeding [ I read "being prepared" to mean they were neither finished nor prepared and had much work to be done BEFORE being ready for seeding]. Several of the greens are ready for PREPERATION [so NONE of the greens were yet READY for seeding, in fact a number of greens weren't even PREPARED yet]."

In the following paragraph, he begins by stating that, "Thus far the holes which are being prepared..." Again, he used the phrase ARE BEING prepared" signifying that they are not completed to the extent that I believe you were implying.

Tilly goes on to write, quite specifically, two paragraphs later how, "The next hole [7th] is LESS DEVELOPED than any of these I have mentioned, but Enough HAS BEEN CLEARED to show SOMETHING of its requirements..."

Clearly his use of the word "SOMETHING" in describing #7 shows that a rudimentary hole form at best was the only thing recognizable on the ground.

In Tilly's reporting then, the first seven holes are a lot less far along than you would have us believe.

Secondly, you wrote, "* Timing. The topo map on which the stick drawing was sketched was made in March 1913. Tilly most likely wrote his description found in the April issue in March which means construction on those holes began prior to that time, so the stick drawing could not be an early iteration (because the topo wasn't made until March). Its unlikely Crump would be re-routing the first seven holes while at the same time constructing them."

Why do you believe that Tilly wrote his article in March? As it was for the edition that would have been SENT OUT to readers at the beginning of April, and possibly even during the last few days of March, Tilly more likely wrote it in February and probably by no later than the middle of the month.

As far as whether or not it would be "unlikely" that Crump would be "re-routing the first seven holes while at the same time constructing them," that is purely speculative on your part. You have several times taken Tom to task for not being explicit in details in which he has written about the map and Colt, including in the very post where the above was written.  

After quoting Tom as stating that Colt visited PV in June, you write as a correction that "Colt arived in May." There is but a difference of a few days only in real time, yet in finding the answer to the question the two of you are discussing, those few days are quite critical and exactitude is important in both of your arguments. This requires yours to display the same level of correctness that you are demanding of TP.

I have no idea at this point how the above will impact on either of your arguments, but I feel that there are some liberties being taken with fact interpretation, probably on both sides, that obscure the clarity of the discussion.  

 
 

[TEPaul]

"Points for it being a Colt early routing attempt:

* There appears to be two hands involved on the map"

Tom MacWood:

That is entirely possible, and perhaps likely. There would be nothing at all unusual about that. Crump obviously showed Colt the routing map he'd probably been working on for 2-3 months when Colt arrived. When Bill Coore arrived at Ardrossan Farms after I'd worked on that routing for about six months I showed it to him and he made all kinds of notations on it. Eventually he went home and did one of his own incorporating many of my ideas with his own and sent it back to me with a number of separate hole drawings and clear overlays.

Colt and Crump then probably broke out a fresh topo map (a copy since the first and second are the same surveyor map) and Colt obviously put all his blue lines on the second topp map. That is clear to see on the "blue/red" line topo. Obviously, after that Crump reviewed it and made some changes such as the famous alteration on #2 where he said; "NO GOOD" to Colt's shifting of the 2nd green and placing the tee for #2 on top of what is now the 2nd green. Crump obviously went back to what he originally had and originally drew.

And so it goes. The red lines on that second topo map show all the changes Crump made to Colt's blue line drawings. Crump obviously used that second topo map ("blue/red" line map) during the years to come as there are markings on it of things that would not happen until the next few years.

"* The 6th and 7th holes as described by Tilly in the April issue of American Golfer do not appear on the map. Not only did Tilly describe the first seven holes, he said they were cleared, under construction and nearly ready for seeding."

There is nothing unusual about that. Pre-Colt #6 was cleared and under construction, as were holes 1-4 and the area that became #5. #7 as Tillinghast described it was not under construction and it would never be built even though Crump did some clearing in that area to look at that land before turning around and going in the opposite direction with #7.

The thing you obviously don't understand about Pine Valley is Crump had numerous areas cleared of trees so he could look at those areas and consider them for potential holes. Most he used but some he never did. Those unusual clearing lines all over the place originally confused John Ott when he first got all the aerials from the Hagley. There were clearing lines past #6, past #12, far to the right of #13, all along the hlliside below #13 green and through the "nature walk" from #15 tee as well as to the right of #15 green. These were all areas Crump was thinking of using for hole which he never did. Many of those hole iterations appear on the "blue/red" line topo map that were obviously considered over the years. Perhaps you're not aware of that fact. There is no question that one of Crump's iterations for #6 and $7 was over the ridge with #6 to a green near #10 and then back across #9 with his hole #7 to a green near John Ott's house which is directly across the street from the 6th tee that was part of the par 5 #6 iteration that Tillinghast described (the green is in the same place as that early par 5 #6 iteration), and which was hole #8 in that particular early iteration with #7 being #9 and basically a similar iteration to #12 being hole #10 and so on.

"* Timing. The topo map on which the stick drawing was sketched was made in March 1913. Tilly most likely wrote his description found in the April issue in March which means construction on those holes began prior to that time, so the stick drawing could not be an early iteration (because the topo wasn't made until March). Its unlikely Crump would be re-routing the first seven holes while at the same time constructing them."

That's not unusual at all (although Crump by no means rerouted all of the first seven holes, as you said) and is precisely what happened. Crump obviously routed and began constructing golf holes even before being supplied with the topo maps that're dated March 1913.

"* There is evidence of tinkering with the 3rd hole on the stick routing....the postion of the green. We know that hole was altered after Colt arived. During the early construction phase (pre-Colt) it was a hole that Tilly described as being based on Mid-Surrey. In some of the photos of the hole as it was built after Colt, you can see what appears to be mounding off to the right of the green."

The 3rd hole did have mounds on it that were based on Mid Surrey mounds. They are evident in some of the early photos of the hole before being removed as was the case with the 9th green at Merion.

"Who made the stick map is open to debate, but I think Colt has a very strong case."

You can debate it all you like but I think the fact that Crump made that early stick routing is almost a certainty given all the evidence available including some of which you either don't understand or seem unwilling to admit for some reason. You're inablity to understand this kind of progression only means to me once again that you really do need to get out in the field on some construction projects and begin to learn what happens out there. It's not hard to tell you are truly unaware of how things happen out there.

[TEPaul]

Phil:

From the available evidence Colt arrived at Pine Valley at the end of May or the beginning of June and spent approximately a week there. The exact date of his arrival and the duration of his stay has never been exactly recorded as far as I can tell.

I can only be as accurate on this stuff as the available documentary evidence I have. I'm not sure what Tom MacWood thinks he's accomplishing other than to be unnecessarily argumentative.

I mean here we have Tillinghast describing holes as they were being routed and built before Colt arrived and we know that's how they got built. Next we have Tillinghast describing the situation long after the course was built and what Crump did before Colt arrived. Next we have Tillinghast describing that the holes were being built to Crump's plan and personal direction. Does that sound anything like what MacWood said that there were eighteen people out there directing the routing and construction of the course?? Next we have a note by Crump on that first routing map that says he marked the greens on the ground. What does that sound like to you regarding who was routing the course??  

So I think it's legitimate to ask MacWood just how much more documentary evidence does he need to logically conclude what Crump was doing and had done before Colt arrived at Pine Valley?

This is just the "Before Colt" phase of this creation story. Wait until I get into the "After Colt left" phase of it that would continue on for years to come.

With the rapidity that Crump was working down there if he'd simply wanted to construct that course to any plan left by Colt I'm sure he could've gotten it all done in about six months which was the time it took to construct the first 18 holes of Merion East.

[Mike_Cirba]

Yes, but Tom...you neglected to mention that the reason Merion was put together so quickly was due to the Herculean assistance of one CB Macdonald and his butt-boy Whigham.  

[TEPaul]

Don't worry about it MikeC or Wayne and I will produce the letter from Hugh Wilson explaining what he really thought of Charles Blair. He never mentioned that kiss-ass son-in-law Whigam, but apparently Hugh thought Raynor was Macdonald's chauffeur/valet.

Probably the most interesting thing about Macdonald and Merion is just how fast Wilson et al at Merion tried to completely disassociate themselves and their golf course and its architecture from any connection to Macdonald or his style of architecture and these template holes or whatever they were.

A few years ago in the old storage room above the pro shop Wayne and I found a draft of an old report from Hugh's brother Alan (who wrote more about Merion than Hugh did) about one of those "advising" visits Macdonald made to Merion early on.

According to Alan, Macdonald tried to convince Hugh to create a very rare and imaginative type of hole concept on the original #3, the hole that is now #6.

Macdonald mentioned he'd created the American Redan, Eden, Short, Leven and Alps and that this one was his own unique architectural creation called the "Hen House" hole or the "Hen" hole. Alan Wilson referred to it in his draft report as Macdonald's idea for a 'on-course brothel' hole.

Macdonald recommended buying that big house that is immediately behind the 6th green and populating it with a goodly number of Philadelphia's finest showgirls (hookers or "hens" to Macdonald).

Wayne and I don't really know what the design look, concept or strategy of this Macdonald template "Hen" hole was but Macdonald did mention that all the rest of the holes at Merion should take anywhere from 12-17 minutes to play depending on their length but if one played the "Hen" hole in bogey, it took 20 minutes. If one played it in par it took 30 minutes, and if one played in it birdie it took 45 minutes.

I asked Wayne how long he thought it took to play the par 4 hole if you got lucky and sunk your approach shot and made a (field) eagle, and Wayne said he wasn't sure but probably about as long as it took for about a dozen hot "hens" to sit on your face either collectively or in tandem.

All we know is the draft mentioned that Hugh Wilson called Macdonald a degenerate dirty old man and Raynor his piss-boy pimp and he dismissed Macdonald and Raynor out of Merion and told them to go back to New York and never return again for an "advisory" visit on the architecture of Merion East.

Personally, I think the hole and its look, concept and strategy sounded pretty cool but if a golf course actually used an 'on course brothel' hole or a Macdonald template "Hen" hole I'd think that hole #3 would be far too early to in the sequence and round for something like that. I'd say it would be more appropriate betwen the 15th to 17th hole and that way it would induce hackers and slackers to try harder to stay in the match play game at least to the 15th to 17th hole.

[T_MacWood]

"Points for it being a Colt early routing attempt:

* There appears to be two hands involved on the map"

Tom MacWood:

That is entirely possible, and perhaps likely. There would be nothing at all unusual about that. Crump obviously showed Colt the routing map he'd probably been working on for 2-3 months when Colt arrived.

That’s interesting speculation. I’m not certain Crump made a routing map before Colt showed up, but assuming he did I would think it would match the course as he was constructing it on the ground. Unfortunately the stick routing doesn’t match the course as described by Tilly.

Colt and Crump then probably broke out a fresh topo map (a copy since the first and second are the same surveyor map) and Colt obviously put all his blue lines on the second topp map. That is clear to see on the "blue/red" line topo. Obviously, after that Crump reviewed it and made some changes such as the famous alteration on #2 where he said; "NO GOOD" to Colt's shifting of the 2nd green and placing the tee for #2 on top of what is now the 2nd green. Crump obviously went back to what he originally had and originally drew.

I’d be very surprised if the blue/red map was a rough routing map as you described Colt & Crump breaking out – its too polished to be a rough routing iteration.

"* The 6th and 7th holes as described by Tilly in the April issue of American Golfer do not appear on the map. Not only did Tilly describe the first seven holes, he said they were cleared, under construction and nearly ready for seeding."

There is nothing unusual about that. Pre-Colt #6 was cleared and under construction, as were holes 1-4 and the area that became #5. #7 as Tillinghast described it was not under construction and it would never be built even though Crump did some clearing in that area to look at that land before turning around and going in the opposite direction with #7.

I have to disagree, IMO it would very unusual to clear and construct seven holes and then hand Colt a routing map that didn’t match that course and those holes being constructed. That makes no sense at all. I have to give you credit for creativity and imagination however.

The thing you obviously don't understand about Pine Valley is Crump had numerous areas cleared of trees so he could look at those areas and consider them for potential holes. Most he used but some he never did. Those unusual clearing lines all over the place originally confused John Ott when he first got all the aerials from the Hagley. There were clearing lines past #6, past #12, far to the right of #13, all along the hlliside below #13 green and through the "nature walk" from #15 tee as well as to the right of #15 green. These were all areas Crump was thinking of using for hole which he never did. Many of those hole iterations appear on the "blue/red" line topo map that were obviously considered over the years. Perhaps you're not aware of that fact.

I understand that Crump did open some ground which allowed hik to discover the 13th. I don't recall reading reports of any other experimental clearings. Was that reported or is that your theory based on looking at aerials?

Would these experimental holes show up on routing map or did Crump prefer to experiment more on the ground than transfer his ideas to paper?

 There is no question that one of Crump's iterations for #6 and $7 was over the ridge with #6 to a green near #10 and then back across #9 with his hole #7 to a green near John Ott's house which is directly across the street from the 6th tee that was part of the par 5 #6 iteration that Tillinghast described (the green is in the same place as that early par 5 #6 iteration), and which was hole #8 in that particular early iteration with #7 being #9 and basically a similar iteration to #12 being hole #10 and so on.

How many Crump iterations are there?

In the first part of your paragraph above I take it you're talking about the #6 and #7 on the stick routing. As you know these holes do match holes Tilly described as being cleared and constructed in April. The second part of the paragraph you seem to be saying the 6th Tilly described was in fact the current 6th. The problem with that theory is the 7th as Tilly described—a tee shot over a deep depression and stream. It ain't there. The pieces of your puzzle do not fit.

"* Timing. The topo map on which the stick drawing was sketched was made in March 1913. Tilly most likely wrote his description found in the April issue in March which means construction on those holes began prior to that time, so the stick drawing could not be an early iteration (because the topo wasn't made until March). Its unlikely Crump would be re-routing the first seven holes while at the same time constructing them."

That's not unusual at all (although Crump by no means rerouted all of the first seven holes, as you said) and is precisely what happened. Crump obviously routed and began constructing golf holes even before being supplied with the topo maps that're dated March 1913.

Wouldn’t you assume if the stick routing was in fact Crump’s routing map - and we know he didn’t get the topo map until March after he began building the first six or seven holes - he would then transfer those holes to this map? The 6th and 7th as described by Tilly are not on that stick map. It doesn't make sense.

[TEPaul]

"That’s interesting speculation. I’m not certain Crump made a routing map before Colt showed up, but assuming he did I would think it would match the course as he was constructing it on the ground. Unfortunately the stick routing doesn’t match the course as described by Tilly."

Tom MacWood:

You're not certain Crump made a routing map before Colt showed up???

You would think it would match the course as he was constructing it on the ground???

With all due respect to you Tom MacWood, who really cares anymore if you're certain about that or not?

A remark like that one of yours above shows a phenomonal lack of understanding about the way things evolved in that day anywhere and particularly with Pine Valley given the information on the course and project that has been made available to you to date.

It really is just a waste of time trying to carry on this conversation or discussion with you. Feel free to disagree with anything you want to. It's neither useful, interesting nor worth additional time to me any longer.

[TEPaul]

I hadn't even read the rest of your post before responding above. The rest of your post shows some real profound ignorance of the creation of Pine Valley and golf architectural projects by a first time amateur architect like George Crump.

For someone who tries to call himself a golf architecture historian and expert researcher you have so much to learn about the way things were in that day and age it's downright frightening.

I think you should seriously consider getting into another line of interest.

[TEPaul]

"The problem with that theory is the 7th as Tilly described—a tee shot over a deep depression and stream. It ain't there. The pieces of your puzzle do not fit."

Then where do you think that deep depression and stream is, Tom MacWood? Do you think Tillinghast dreamed up that description? Or do you think that deep depression and stream miraculously vanished??? If you'd ever been to Pine Valley perhaps you might understand, but then again, perhaps not.

[T_MacWood]

...near John Ott's house which is directly across the street from the 6th tee that was part of the par 5 #6 iteration that Tillinghast described (the green is in the same place as that early par 5 #6 iteration), and which was hole #8 in that particular early iteration with #7 being #9....

TE
This is where you speculated #6 (#8 on the stick) was as described by Tilly, unfortunately 7th (#9 on the stick) does not have an enormous depression and stream. And in answer to your questions, yes I know where the enormous depression & stream is and no I don' think Tilly dreamed it up...the problem is Tilly's description does not match what is on the stick drawing. This is one of the major problems with your theory.

Again, the pieces of your puzzle do not fit.

[TEPaul]

"TE
This is where you speculated #6 (#8 on the stick) was as described by Tilly, unfortunately 7th (#9 on the stick) does not have an enormous depression and stream. And in answer to your questions, yes I know where the enormous depression & stream is and no I don' think Tilly dreamed it up...the problem is Tilly's description does not match what is on the stick drawing. This is one of the major problems with your theory.
Again, the pieces of your puzzle do not fit."

Tom MacWood:

It's too bad the obviousness of the liklehood of various logical events and occurences need to be explained to you again and again. Apparently you didn't read Philip Young's post #163. Read it again. I always thought it was probably too obvious to state.

What if Tillinghast was out there with Crump in February 1913 or March observing those first seven holes that he described in his article before Crump was given the surveyor's topo map (that's dated by the surveyor March 1913).

How could Crump put hole iterations on a topo map he hadn't gotten yet?  

[T_MacWood]

Tom MacWood:

It's too bad the obviousness of the liklehood of various logical events and occurences need to be explained to you again and again. Apparently you didn't read Philip Young's post #163. Read it again. I always thought it was probably too obvious to state.

What if Tillinghast was out there with Crump in February 1913 or March observing those first seven holes that he described in his article before Crump was given the surveyor's topo map (that's dated by the surveyor March 1913).

How could Crump put hole iterations on a topo map he hadn't gotten yet?  

Obviously Crump could not sketch out holes on a topo map that did not exist. No one is claiming he was a time traveler....yet.

The question is why didn't he sketch out those holes (he was in the process of building) on the topo map after he got it in March?

Where on the property were the 6th and 7th holes that Tilly described in his article?

[TEPaul]

"The question is why didn't he sketch out those holes (he was in the process of building) on the topo map after he got it in March?"

And the logical and likely answer to that question, Tom MacWood, is when Crump did get that topo routing map he'd probably changed his mind about what he'd shown Tillinghast earlier (particularly regarding #7 which essentially he turned around to run in the opposite direction and which became #9 on that first topo map) and put on the map the iterations for #6, 7, 8 and 9 that show on that first topo routing map. If you haven't figured it out yet the holes that are today #6 and #7 on that routing map are marked as holes #8 and #9.  

"Where on the property were the 6th and 7th holes that Tilly described in his article?"

Don't you even know that yet? If not, I think I'll let you try to figure that one out all by yourself.

Good luck.  

[T_MacWood]

And the logical and likely answer to that question, Tom MacWood, is when Crump did get that topo routing map he'd probably changed his mind about what he'd shown Tillinghast earlier (particularly regarding #7 which essentially he turned around to run in the opposite direction and which became #9 on that first topo map) and put on the map the iterations for #6, 7, 8 and 9 that show on that first topo routing map. If you haven't figured it out yet the holes that are today #6 and #7 on that routing map are marked as holes #8 and #9.  

"Where on the property were the 6th and 7th holes that Tilly described in his article?"

Don't you even know that yet? If not, I think I'll let you try to figure that one out all by yourself.

Good luck.  

I see. Now your theory includes Crump clearing and building the first seven holes and then changing his mind just before Colt arrived. Good one.

By the way the 9th on the stick (current 7th) does not play over a deep depression and stream.

The fact that you are unable to identify a long unreachable par-5 6th (and we know Crump appreciated very long par-5s) followed by a par-4 7th over a deep depression/stream is the reason why your theory has unraveled.

The pieces of your puzzle do not fit.