"Tom
The 17th is shifted a good 40 yards left. I superimposed one map on the other and it's clear (I think I sent this to you a 2-3 years ago). It has to really, considering where that stick 17th green is."
Paul:
The 17th hole was eventually shifted perhaps 20-30 yards right but it is still the same hole. The 17th green was originally about where the 11th tee now is simply because the 11th hole at that time did not exist at all where it is now. In Crump's original routing the 11th hole was similar to what became Colt's 13th hole---a hole that was never built.
"The 15th on the stick map doesn't start near where the 15th starts on the blue/red map. It starts way up the current 15th fairway. I don't think you can credit Crump with routing that hole, other than adding the island tee. Nor the 16th really, that's Colt's routing."
No, the 15th doesn't start on Crump's original plan where it did on the blue/red map. It starts much farther up the present fairway closer to the road. The present 15th doesn't start within 150 yards of where it does on the blue/red map or on Colt's booklet hole drawing either. Frankly, I think Colt's 15th green is perhaps 50-75 yards to the right and below where the present 15th green is. Colt's green looks to be about where the middle tee on #16 is. That Colt green is drawn very close to the left side of the 11th fairway and that's exactly where the present middle tee is on #16. So, when that hole was eventually done it was fairly different from either or the first two maps, particularly if the green is that far to the left and up the hill. As I'm sure you know that was one that Crump was never happy with and that fact was the last thing he mentioned to Father Carr before he died.
The 16th hole is a combination of a shortened tee and the remainder of the hole is along the line of where Crump had his initial 16th which was a fairly long par 5. To the end Crump entertained the idea of pushing the green on #16 much farther out and along the side of the lake and making it a par 5 again. If you look carefully on the stick routing you can see another stick line out in that direction past the circle (green). Isn't it interesting how Crump kept going back to some of the holes and green sites he'd originally routed on the course?
"The stick 18th does show a considerable shift in the fairway to the left for the tee shot."
There is a shifting of the center line but to me that is a very inconsequential adjustment architecturally. It was simply to move things right to get out of the way of the 10th green.
"Colt obviously has strong stylistic influence on PVGC with the scale and stye of the hazards. That's pretty obvious with the similarities to the heath courses, you just have to compare old photos."
I would not agree with that at all. The style and size of the bunkering at Pine Valley looks nothing like what Colt drew which were much smaller and traditionally placed bunkering than anything that was built on the course. Crump's decsion to do massive sand areas on that course and sort of island fairways was unique to him and should never be credited to Colt----at least not when one looks at what Colt drew in the hole booklet and on that map we bought on EBay. The size and scale of the red line bunkering (Crump) is notably diferent than anything Colt drew or recommended down there, in my opinion.
"The essential strategies/shapes of the majority of holes is present on Colts plan eventhough bunkers shapes and positions were changed. If anyone who knows the course, looked at Colt's plan they would immediately recognize it as PVGC. Not so with the stick plan!"
The essential strategies of the majority of the holes at Pine Valley either existed before Colt arrived or were altered and developed differently after Colt had left.
Again, the holes that I firmly believe are solely Colt's are #5, #8, #9, #10, #11. That's five holes. #15 and #16 are a combination of Crump and Colt. The rest of the holes at Pine Valley are not Colt's routing or design. That would total five to Colt, two in combination, and eleven to Crump and perhaps a collaborator such as Tillinghast (7 &13) and one to perhaps Govan (14).
"Do you not credit Colt for pulling the majority of the course together into a cohesive routing? That's the skill of routing, no?"
That's an interesting question indeed. Yes, I think I sure would credit Colt for pulling the course together in a sense and more than would seem warranted by the amount of actual holes he came up with.
I think those who really understand routing will understand the significance of what the change he made to #5 meant in a general sense and that is probably precisely why he was always given so much credit for what he did on that hole.
In my opinion, that change on #5 alone essentially got most of the routing to fall into place (excluding #12-15 which frankly at that point is an area enough isolated and confined that there wasn't all that much latitude out there left to change them in a dramatic routing sense anyway. In other words Crump really did built himself right into a box in that #12-15 section before figuring out how to unravel that situation. It's frankly amazing they pushed #13, 14 and 15 as far out there as they eventually did. And those holes are nothing at all like Colt's and are up to 150-200 yards farther out then anything that was thought of in the first half of the creation of Pine Valley.
What Colt's recommendation on #5 did, in my opinion, is immediatley throw out Crump's #6 and #7. Crump's #8 thereby became #6 and Crump's #9 thereby became #7. Colt's #8 and #9 essentially took the place of Crump's #6 and #7 on the first map (stick routing) on the front nine. Colt's #10 and #11 essentially threw out and took the place of Crump's #13 and #14 on the back nine. That's four holes of Colt's and when you add the 5th which was the key piece in the jigsaw puzzle that again adds up to five holes for Colt.
And again, you cannot look at that Colt map that we bought and just assume that it looks quite close to the way the course turned out and that most of the course should therefore be credited to Colt. The point is the majority of the holes on that Colt map were not Colt's.