Defining Classic

[aclayman]

If the older courses do become obsolete, will they then have failed at standing the test of time, and therefore should be reclassified?

[Tim_Weiman]

aclayman:

Obsolete for whom?

Re-classified to what?

If a course can't challenge the the most elite players, does that mean it has "failed the test of time"?

[aclayman]

Im with you Tim, I can't see what all the fuss is about. Fuss being defined by the personal attacks I have recieved just for wanting to hear better arguments for why  the classic venues that are getting renovations and restorations.
Except for the mecca of CPC, which is at this moment being restored to its original (or almost, 1940's) state. I'm happy to be able to convey that the seventh will be reopening soon.

And, I am still wondering why there is all this fuss over obsolesence when it's for just a rare few. I care as much about the pros game, as I am sure, they care about mine.

[George Pazin]

Adam -

I truly enjoy your posts & I feel that I am as anti-alarmist as just about anyone.

However, I am a little mystified that you do not seem to think that anything bad is happening. The list of "classic" courses that are being altered(unfortunately, usually for the worse) is already large & seems to grow every week. True, many of these alterations may be more the poor choices of membership than the actual necessity for alteration, but, regardless of the reason, courses are being altered, or are dropping out of use by the various tours. While I agree that it would be better to not use these venues for pros than to alter them, memberships don't seem to feel the same way. For all the talk on the other threads of how successfully Lytham challenged the players, I have read in more than a few places that the 2001 Open may have been its last.

I am not going to run around screaming "The sky is falling!The sky is falling!" But I would certainly like to see the powers that be(read: USGA & R&A) either implement a tourney ball, roll back the distance standard, or at least follow Dan King's advice, & allow for a competition ball, with an eye toward the future of possibly requiring one.

These changes affect me almost zero. I don't play classic courses(wish I could ), I won't be playing in tournaments anytime soon unless the golf gods see fit to knock 20 strokes off my handicap, & I don't play 7000+ yard daily fees from the tips - I know my limitations. But I feel for the others who are seeing their courses altered for whatever reason, whether it's an attempt to secure an Open, or simply a desire by an insecure membership to have a "championship" course. Longer courses=more $$$=slower play.

[aclayman]

Ty  George,
I comisserate about the lack of deference to the history of certain places.
Even at my little Muni the lack of respect for the elder, and the local, that has kept the course a viable entity, way before the greed boom, is now being crowded out, not only physically but in other ways too.

In that context I agree with all those that have posted before me, but the reality is that the membership of whatever club that has decided to chase the odometer is to blame for their actions.
A good question to ask is: what is it about the membership at Skokie CC, and some others, that made them make the decision not to renovate and restore instead?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Adam,
I have to tell you, most of the time you really confuse me. This has nothing to do with you personally, but in the past I have always felt that you were of the alarmist character George speaks of. (Speaks? Ok, let me say "Writes!")

One minute you don't like what they are doing to Pacific Grove and the world is a greedy place controlled by the club managers there, (For which I do not doubt you for one minute.) But then you can't seem to fathom how a classic courses are being changed just as George elaborates, I further throw my hands up, in the air trying to understand where or what you aren't seeing or experiencing. Especially from someone that is on golf courses for a living. (Good ones at that.)

Please read George's post over and over about ten times and then go out and see what damage has been done to say......

Pebble Beach! (Over the years)

It may still challenge and entertain all who visit its fairways, but is it in the same mold of H. Chandler Egan's version of the course from 1929? Of course not! It has evolved like many classic courses do. It's just that people must educate themselves on the topic of evolution and maintenance for a paticular course and it's environment, then take that knowledge and put it to good use by protecting its features and characteristics.

For further review of this thinking see Merion Golf Club and its current situation. (And I state this in a VERY negative way.)

Bringing Tom Fazio (Or like in the 60's, RTJ Sr.) in for a nip and tuck that pretty much erases any natural evolution in place of a signature style is not my idea of course "restoration." Its dumb, stupid and severly misguided.

I find it hard to believe the Grand Master of the Modern Age Golf Course, "King" Fazio would even attempt to offer any advice or consultation for such a risky proposition.

Can you believe he is allowing Chip "Ronald" MacDonald & Sons, overseen by  Buddy Marruci to follow his explicit details???

Talk of a comedy of errors and I can see a future of mass finger-pointing in the not too distant future.

[Gib_Papazian]

Adam,

Courses constructed with "modern" philosophies are a true/false examination.

Classic courses are an essay question.

The best modern courses try to extract and essay from the players, not a definitive answer.

Think about it.  

[aclayman]

Tommy- I have very little doubt that the way things are, is not good.
Perhaps my foundation comes from so much time on the course, that my feeble old mindset of believing, with all my heart, that long and down the middle, is highly overated. Combined that on any given day ones golf game may or maynot show-up. I usually don't care too much if it does because I am so greatful it showed up in the first place that I don't stress over why it left or when, if ever, it's coming back. So, to that end I believe, like Rich Goodale and even Pete's idea, that the conditioning of any venue can still make a decent defense of itself and if not, perhaps that course is not as holy or as great as some niche' clique may think. I have no problem with you having a problem with my attitudes, just remember I know alot less than you.

BTW- I can no longer sit by and condone the lack of due dilegence and have decided to leave the Kingdom. Yup, the darkside has won a tremendous victory but I will live to fight another day.  

[aclayman]

Oh yes and Tommy I believe I can fathom the notion, I just questioned the timing of these obviously way too late concerns. Tom Doak writes he and Mr, Dye wrote on this subject 15 years ago and not many have listened.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Adam, say it is not so. How much longer are you in Pacific Grove and for god's sake where could you go that is better. John

[Mike_Young]

A
I have always considered a classic as one that has evolved whether good or bad.  And a modern as one that has tried to go from  0-60 in a year.
I think George has some good points.  IMHO most of this problem is in "keeping up with the Jones" by an uninformed membership. In the US "signature equates to expertise"/..."signature" comes from marketing efforts by developers.  The celebrity status that comes to some signatures this day and time is a byproduct of the development market marketing these names in order to sell lots a a higher price.  (Did golf architecture really have celebrity status for some before resort and housing developments ??)MARKETING 101 "the perception of the truth is stronger than the truth"  And the American public loves "logos".  So the Greens comm. chooses in most cases based on this type of info.  And then the signature comes in ; feels as though he has to make some statement(...since the club is paying for this...), makes changes for changes sake and then the critics start.

I think that so many golfers equate good maintenance conditions to design that they do not know bad design.  I have seen clubs in my area that were classics go thru "modernization" when if the same new maintenance conditions were applied to the old product they would have a much better golf experience.
Anyway, I guess I am trying to say it is the American way.  We are led like sheep where marketing defines expertise and expertise tells us masses what we want for our golf experiences.  And this group is probably the old 80/20 rule

Mike

[les_claytor]

Tommy,

Why the bash on MacDonald & Son's?  I've seen their work and I was impressed with their ability as golf course builders.  Is it the projects they are involved in that you disaprove of, or are you disparaging their ability as G C builders?

[Tommy_Naccarato]

Les,
It must be a matter of opinion. The work I have both seen and heard is not what I would call paying attention to detail like I have come to know and admire.

The point is that Merion should have been in the hands of someone that wanted to take a lot of time to make sure it was right. MacDonald & Sons was simply not the contractor who should have been doing this work. It should belong in the hands of a someone that knows how to approach restoration and isn't doing it for maximum profit.

What they should do is stick to building brand new golf courses for Rees Jones, Art Hills, & Tom Fazio.

I recently saw their work on Riviera and was appalled at what they think a Riviera-style barranca and George Thomas/Billy Bell bunkering should look like.

More on that to come.

Adam,

Please forgive if I offended you in anyway.

Stay in the Kingdom. You live near one of the great classrooms in the game. So go for a walk out on to CPC or Pebble and see how the shaping of the fairways ties into the bunkering and also observe how the greens work with those shapes. It is there you will understand the most definitive description of "Classic."

Also read the following books:

-Golf Architecture in America by George C. Thomas.

-The Links by Robert Hunter.

It will explain even more.

[aclayman]

Thanx Tommy for your sentiments, I was never offended, not even mift. I, like so few, can handle anyones attempt to explore the elasticity of my backbone. As a matter of fact I enjoy it and even learn from it.

As for the potential move, there is still a glimmer of hope, we'll stay but I'm sure I have come to the correct decision.

My time here in the kingdom has been appreciated. Not a moment went by that I didn't know how lucky I was.
As, you could've predicted the character and future character of the entire peninsula is being altered by the G word. My landlord died and his daughter took 3 whole days to raise the rent 33%. Just on principle I couldn't agree to their terms and am looking forward to a new adventure in a new state.

I will be here for the immediate future (oct.)and am looking forward to your visit, John. Please confirm with me if I can make a time @ pg. I know a slough of junkies who will travel just to meet a fellow addict, especially one who gets to chip around CPC with a malted bevie, at dusk. On that vein I don't think all the holes at CPC will be open by the 14th, So, maybe Mr. Langley would be receptive to my pleas for one last chance at the old girl??? Any other plans would be just as welcomed.
Tommy why not hop into that Black beauty and cruise the 101?

[les_claytor]

Tommy,

What you described was your dislike for the design work, and not necessarilly the construction work.  A contractor's role is to realize the architect's vision. On the other hand, it's the architect's responsibility to get his vision produced by the contractor, so the two of course work hand in hand.  

I saw quite a bit of the work at Riviera, and there was plenty of detail, and it was accomplished in a skillful and organized manner.  Now if you don't like the final result of the details............. what can you say. From what I saw, I would recommend McDonald and Sons for new and remodel work without hesitation.

[ed_getka]

Adam
  Do you mind having another player in Oct. at P.G.? I have a friend who lives next to the 4th hole and I love playing the back nine whenever I come down from Pleasanton.

Gib P.
  I noticed somewhere else that you like Stevinson Ranch. It is one of my favorite courses around here. Let me know if you want to go out there some time. egetka@earthlink.net

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Adam, I am looking forward to playing PG too.
I hope the 14th of august is ok for you. I am only down south for a short time before the move to bandon. Nothing would be better than golf with you and a few more of the treehouse gang. John

[THuckaby2]

Holy cripes, fellas.... Adam leaving the Kingdom is sad indeed.  OK, one way or the other, if plans are afoot for 8/14 at PG or WHATEVER with Mr. Bernhardt, PLEASE do count me in.  There's work and there are priorities and this round is a MUST, even if I will also see John up in Bandon.  Please do fill me in and if you can stand a few more hours with talkative me, I'll be there.

The G word is killing all of Bay Area golf and life, Adam.  But I gotta believe those who live by it are getting there comeuppance, slowly but surely.  In down times you find out who your real friends are.  Down times are coming if not here already.

TH
tom.huckaby@clorox.com

ps to Ed Getka - Stevinson is beloved by all of the Bay Area regulars here... I gotta get out there again myself.  Some day....