News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« on: August 01, 2001, 06:23:00 PM »
Below is the link to a column from Brad Faxon in Golf World. It reads like a joint press release written by the PGA Tour media staff and Titleist (his sponsor). In Brad's view, purses and ratings are higher than ever, so we should stop talking about the distance issue. According to Brad, the game has never been healthier. Why is it that I bet there are some people in the golf course business who might not agree with that statement...
http://www.golfdigest.com/newsandtour/index.ssf?/newsandtour/gw20010803columnfaxon.html

aclayman

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2001, 07:47:00 PM »
I see the polished edge that could be a publicist but I am still not convinced that the protectionists are correct. I agree that the ball is superiorly constructed and can lead to "less club in" but You, still have to swing it under the circumstances.

It would be like having an employee doing less than his best work because you tell him to. Un-american I say, doing less than ones best.
I have seen it more than once In american golf and it is, the sadest.


Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2001, 08:29:00 AM »
Faxon's comment (that Tiger will still have an advantage over the field if the ball is changed) illustrates that he completely misses the root of the issue.  

I don't think anyone worries about Tiger and guys like Duval, Mickelson et al hitting the ball farther.  There have always been long hitters.  

The problem is that EVERYONE is now a long hitter.  

"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

aclayman

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2001, 09:32:00 PM »
This is a problem?

Daniel_Wexler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2001, 02:25:00 AM »
Yes.

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2001, 04:19:00 AM »
aclayman,

yes it is and everyone is hitting it farther as Kevin says


Willie_Dow

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2001, 06:46:00 AM »
And why are we making bunkers consistant?

aclayman

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2001, 06:52:00 AM »
I am not beeing paid to feel the way I do or write what I write. But, if the drive is as insignificant a shot as the numbers show historically. I ask myself what all the fuss is about. Ok so the ball stays round longer and maybe just maybe that can translate into less putts per round, which is where the majority of strokes occur. But as understand it the object is to put it in as as few strokes as possible. What you advocate would want to restrict that ability? Why not go back to using rocks and playing towards trees.

I still site the lack of any of todays archies that contribute to this site from speaking up on this issue, becasue if you are right, then they will be in greater demand.

In a recent post the prolific Mr. Klein writes that the technology in the ball has had as much, if not more, impact than the intro of the steel shaft. Well as I understand it the steel shaft took over 20 years to become  revolutionary. So lets give the ball some more time and see if is physically possible(for anyone) to break 60 on a regular basis.


Mike_Cirba

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2001, 06:56:00 AM »
$hee$h...you'd think that touring pro$ would be able to $ee further than ju$t the current $tate of the profe$$ional game.

BillV

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2001, 07:43:00 AM »
In the past, courses modified to adjust to advances in technology.  One only needs to look at a current thread to see a post describing Muirfield as a 5000 yd course at the turn of the century.

At some point, some things are worth preserving.  (I also agree that the R&A and USGA need to get their acts together-maybe they are and it is just taking time).  Some things are worth preserving.

aclayman, everyone being a long hitter is bad for the game by changing strategy.  Brad Faxon is being a very short-sighted lackey with his approval and endorsement of the Titleist party line.  I'm not calling for gutties and hickories, but I also don't believe in dumbing down nor rule making by anarchist popularity, either.

Also Tiger Woods is not the only quality long hitter in golf, he is the best and he is the most shoved down our throats.  Constantly hte example.  "Let's make more money off Tiger's coattails".  Shorter playing implements will still give a relative advantage to TW, but he still has to get the job done in the other realms of play, too. It would be nice for his and other's accomplishments bear some resemblance to others in the past.  

Interesting comments on Golf Central and other places where the discussion led to the "quality" of golf at Bighorn the other day.  How people (?) want to see birdies and the like (If your name is PGATour®).

I don't really want to see the future of golf if Tiger's new fans are the future of golf.  

Brad Faxon, the same guy that fought unsuccessfully for the CVS Classic to stay alive in Sutton, Mass. !?  Tradition lives on.  If there is enough money in it for some.

When is that golf recession supposed to hit?


T_MacWood

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2001, 09:27:00 AM »
I'm not surprised by Brad Faxon's view, he has never exhibited an understanding or appreciation for golf architecture. He is simply looking out for his sponsor and for his own financial interest. Likesize Adam Clayman is looking out for what he believes is best for John Q. Public -- so what if technology helps the average guy at Spyglass Hill, the course is damn tough anyway. And so what if a few old courses have to be altered or are rendured obsolete for championship golf, it isn't the end of the world. Most of us won't even get to play these courses and we certainly aren't entered in the US Open or Masters. And when you really think about it, as Adam has said before, there is no bad architecture -- its all good.

I say keep pushing the envelope until Adam and I are able to bring Spyglass to its knees. Then again why stop there, I say bring on the 8,000 and 9,000 yard courses, hell why not 10,000 yards -- bigger is better. Afterall the essense of the game is quite simple, fewest strokes - interesting strategies and thoughful designs are overrated.


Adam_Messix

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2001, 10:20:00 AM »
Events such as the "Battle at Bighorn" and the Skins Game are the only times that I want to see a lot of birdies.  They are canned golf and have no significance in the long term scheme of things.  What really upsets me is that they can't get winds like that at the Open Championship (Mother Nature, I hope you're taking notes)

As far as Brad Faxon goes.....he should realize that Titleist is not paying him enough money to statements like he does (even if a publicist "helped" him.)  If you really want to see how "good" these guys are, make them play with the same type of ball that Nicklaus was using when he won the 1980 US Open at Baltusrol (w/ 334 dimples)

Also, we must understand that players like Brad want the ball to be as hot as possible to equalize the distance off the tee of the field.  This gives strong putters such as himself an advantage.  


aclayman

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2001, 10:41:00 AM »
Tom, The irony in using Spyglass for your analogy is  that the best advice anyone can get at Spyglass is to sacrafice yardage and keep it in play. But, the real truth is the putting. Those greens can be made damn near impossible and even(when they're slow) their reputation has the single digit's(and pros), knees a knock'in.
Also, someone will probably inform you that spy is a modern course and is outside the scope, but your point is well taken,
and keep the faith cause ...it could happen.  I actually did have nine holes once that were an amazing, infrequent, dropped it to it's knees,(-1) especially for a hack  such as I.

Attack those putts
adam


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2001, 10:52:00 AM »
aclayman:

Yes there are many architects who are perfectly happy with the status quo, i.e. getting paid $$ to renovate older courses every twenty years.

I'm not one of those guys.  I've been saying for years that the ball needs to be reined in.  Of course, I wasn't the first; Pete Dye had me ghost-write on the same issue 15 years ago, and the writings of Ross and Thomas and MacKenzie all address the same problem.

There is some validity to what you say, in that architects who care have been saying that the sky is falling for 80 years, and golf still survives.  But a lot of golf courses are on limited acreage -- not just Merion -- and I don't want to see all of them blown up because Titleist won't give in.

What is so sacred about how far the golf ball carries?  Why is it important for Brad Faxon to hit it 20 yards farther than Ben Hogan, and 40 yards farther than Bobby Jones?


Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #14 on: August 02, 2001, 11:19:00 AM »
Geoff:

Thanks for bringng the Faxon article to our attention.

Much of the discussion and confusion on the distance issue involves Augusta National and, to a lesser extent Tiger Woods.

Augusta challenges our thinking because we want to associate it with values Alister Mackenzie stood for (i.e., an interesting and fun course for all classes of players) when in reality it is really a "tournament players" course.

Augusta exists to host one of golf's major championships.  Yes, it is a club.  Members and fortunate guests do play and probably enjoy the course.  But, changes to the course are driven by the Masters Tournament, by the desire of the club to host a major event.

Other clubs have gone in a different direction.  Good old Prestwick long ago ceased to be part of a technology arms race and gave up hosting the Open.  Clubs like Cypress Point and Crystal Downs never really got into the fray and come much closer to preserving Mackenzie's original work.

But, not Augusta.  It wants the Masters to continue right where it is at.

Thus, contrary to what Brad Faxon suggested, it is perfectly reasonable to focus on the distance/technology issue specifically as it pertains to influencing major championship events and venues.

Let's be more clear: at the heart of the argument for a tournament ball is recognition that for the vast majority of people who play the game, distance or technology is not really a big issue.  The case for the tournament ball really comes down to:

a) what kind of contest to we want major championships to be?

b) what is the best way to achieve this?

Major championships should test and reward the ability to play the Driver.  However, the game should not be reduced to a series of Drivers off the tee and short irons, especially wedges, in to the greens.  Instead, the ability to hit mid irons and long irons in to greens should be tested as much if not more.

Rolling back the overall distance of the ball might not change the relative advantage long hitters such as Tiger Woods have.  Indeed, that should not even be thought of as the objective.

Rather, the intent is to force the entire field to hit a greater variety of clubs and to hit "more club".

Why?

Because that would make for a better overall chanpionship test.

The alternative to a tournament ball seems to be simply building courses ever longer just to accomodate tournament quality players.

But, how long do we go in this direction?  Why is an arms race between equipment manufacturers and course designers a benefit to the game of golf?

If length is always relative, why not just leave Augusta at its current length and roll back the ball?  Why spend more money to add length to the course only to have manufacturers come back a few years later with a ball that goes even further?

The case for a tournament ball boils down to this: it is the most effecient, most economical way to preserve the quality of major championships events without disrupting or burdening the John Q golfing public.

Tim Weiman

Geoff_Shackelford

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2001, 03:09:00 PM »
Tim,
My point exactly! As Nicklaus said, "it's a very simple scenario." I wish a total rollback would happen because I think it would be great to see people build 63-6500 courses again, but I don't think it could be managed without years of fighting and lawsuits and spin, which the ball companies would be able to deal with when you look at how poorly the USGA is handling PR issues these days.

Unfortunately, I'm getting the feeling that there are many armchair architects in golf like Hootie Johnson, who enjoy making changes to places like Augusta. Most of the national golf media will buy into anything if they can say it is "progressive" and "more fair." I mean, look how they have the writers repeating the "premium on accuracy" mantra. That one would give MacKenzie, Bob Jones and Mr. Line of Charm, Max Behr, a bad case of heartburn. Talk about not understanding what that course was all about.

Tournament golf has a profound impact on what the architects are doing. As Tom posted above, he's resisting what some architects like Tom Fazio are willing to do: change classic courses. But I bet he's also struggling in the field with yardages and how holes will play. I did our back nine yardages yesterday at Rustic Canyon and my head started spinning when I tried envisioning how the holes would work in terms of decision making and options, assuming average drives get even longer in the next few years. The longer the ball keeps going and the faster the technology changes, the harder it is for the architects to inject those interesting dilemmas.

I was very encouraged by last week's announcement from the ASGCA advocating a rollback for all balls. It was a huge stance for the Society to take, because many architects could profit from expensive redos or they could renovate wannabe tournament courses as a means to get publicity. Wait, someone is already doing that...

As for guys like Faxon, I expect him to defend his sponsor and the commissioner, but in the future it will be hard to take him seriously when he talks about the tradition, history and character of the game and how he loves all the old style courses.
Geoff


Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2001, 03:20:00 PM »
Maybe off the wall but, how about moguls (low rollers) in the 275 to 310 yard range? Wouldn't take the driver out of your hands due to width or rough. It would give uneven lies, hence a more difficult approach for those greedy enough to pass the intended landing area.
"chief sherpa"

jglenn

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2001, 04:03:00 PM »
Aclayman,

If you want to hear responses from architects, I'll throw in my two cents.

The golf ball itself has not been going farther for many years now, if not for many decades.  Any golf ball must still fall within the "Overall Distance Standard" (ODS) set forth by the RCGA, the USGA and the R&A.  

This standard has not changed, even with someone named Woods hitting the ball further than the next guy.  There is no such thing as a "longer ball", regardless of what those guys in marketing try to tell you.

What has changed are the design of the clubs (bigger, lighter, longer), the fitness of the players, and the turf management of the course.  These are the contributing factors the steady increase in average driving distance we have seen on all professional tours and in casual play.

Still, though the ball remains "reigned in" by the ODS, it continues to fly farther for the reasons stated above.  Regardless of the reason for the booming drives, the ball is the solution to the problem.

And what is the problem, you might ask?

Quite simply - and this has been stated many times before - the problem is two-fold: Older courses become have their playing characteristics significantly affected, to the point of being obsolete; and newer course require more and more real estate, driving up the cost of the game for everyone.

Those two points crucial.

What must be remembered when studying the benifits of a "shorter" ball is that distance is relative.

When we watch Freddy or Tiger booming another one past the 300 yard mark, we are not amazed by how far they hit the ball.

We are amazed by how far they hit the ball compared to others, including ourselves.  

Distance is relative.

When the "shorter" ball arrives, and Tiger booms it past the 250 mark, we will continue to be amazed, because we can only hit it 200.  When we watch Mark McGuire hit in into the top deck, we stand in awe of the prodigious distance he can hit a baseball, even though he "only" hits it about the length of a soft 8-iron.  Once again, we are amazed by how far he hits it compared to others, or compared to how far a baseball "should" be hit.

Watching McGuire hit in 300 feet produces the same amazement as watching Tiger hit it 300 yards.

Roll the ball back.

We'll gain so much more than the loss of a few yards.


aclayman

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2001, 05:27:00 PM »
Tom Doak And Jeremy Glenn Thank you for your insights. I agree with Jeremy's statement that the ball is not the only culprit. I do believe that the systematic analyzation of not only the equiptment but the swing too, are reasons players are better.
It is that reward that scaling back the ball would seem to nullify.

And I will state again that perhaps this type of design problem could and should be solved by the ARCHITECT.

I personally think it is sad that these private clubs are so disatisfied with what they have and have gone around ripping their treasures up to the point of non-recognition of an architects particular style, but that issue must be as old as the steel shaft?  They should take a lesson from Skokie CC and restore so the moment you step on the first tee you see the influence of both Ross and Langford.

I admit I know nothing, but don't ever remember saying there is no such thing as bad architecture. Mostly Because I give x amount of credit to those who put their names on any artform. I probably am just a little bit more circumspect when it comes to being critical. And rarely will you catch me saying anything negative. But you can always count on the unabashed unsweetend TRUTH.

Cheers
adam  


Gary Sherman

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2001, 05:32:00 PM »
I read the article today and I am still somewhat on the fence on the issue.  I am against the notion of a "standard" ball.  I do believe that the USGA needs to publish ball restrictions and monitor new ball technology for compliance.  The same is true for clubs.  But as I think about this, a few thoughts come to mind about technology and the courses I play here in New England.
- With all the piano sized drivers and distance balls played by the seniors at the US Senior Open, why did Salem CC kick all their arses?
-There are a number of fine annual amateur tournaments held up here, the Northeast Amateur, Mass Amateur, Hornblower, etc.  They are all played at the older classic courses such as Wannamoissett, The Orchards, Worcester CC, etc.  The winner is lucky to break par after 36 or 72 holes.  These tournaments are filled with young, long hitting studs.
- Our club (built in 1923) held the Mass Senior Amateur last year.  One player out of 140 broke par in ONE round  of the 36 hole tournament.  The course, par 70,  measures 6,350 from the tips!
-It's amazing how these 75 year old "short" courses hold up to the technology.  WHy?  Wayward tee shots are penalized by deep fairway bunkers, deep thick rough, or OB/trees lines.  Nasty sloped greens, stimped to 9 require precise approach shots.  Older greens have sutble nuances created by decades of earth movement makiing putting extremely frusttrating for those not familiar with the green.  The total yardage of these courses is deceiving due to the high percentage of short, under 400 yard, par 4's.  Yet there are always a couple of very long par 4's, greater than 440, and long par 3's, greater than 200 yards, in the routing that can bring the best players to their knees.
- I believe 6,500-6,700 yard courses can still be built by architects today if we carefully examine these classic courses and incorporate lessons learned.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2001, 08:23:00 AM »
Check out Sergio's average driving distance from today's play at the International (at altitude):
http://www.pgatour.com/scoring/sc/21209.html
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

ForkaB

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2001, 08:36:00 AM »
....and check out his score.....

Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2001, 04:45:00 AM »
His medal score was 71, his Stableford scoring system score was +7 (the higher, the better).  Lee Janzen leads with a +17.

T_MacWood

Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #23 on: August 03, 2001, 04:58:00 AM »
Narrow deep thick rough, OB and tree lined fairways are not what immediately
comes to mind when thinking of a well designed or perfectly presented golf
course. I guess desperate times call for desperate measures.

Sure these brillantly designed courses are still holding their own against
the Seniors, regional amateurs and occasionly the tour, but are these courses playing as the original designers concieved? And is a heavy dose of irons off the tee, followed by wedges and short irons, the ideal form of the game?

Adam
Do you think equipment has had anything to do with the modern swing? I recently put a 'modern' driver in my bag and now find myself suffering from a chronic pulled groin the result of the cuts I've been taking lately? I'm continually amazed by the senior tour and how effectively they have been able to adapt to the new modern swing, I guess you can teach an old dog new tricks.

The issue may be old, but does that make it any less important? I'm glad to see you condemn those disatisfied old clubs and recognize the likes of Skokie, while at the same time being perfectly happy with technology pushing the envelope. I admire the flexibility of your positive outlook.

I'm all for praising those who attempt to create - you know art for arts sake. But once an artist is commissioned/paid and seeks the public's acceptance in the form money - that's a different story. Be they a chef, actor, writer, composer or golf architect, not only do I think it is acceptable to be critical or discerning, I think it is essential to the welfare of that particular art form -- mediocraty will soon follow the absence of critical scrutiny.  Of course my attitude may be out of step in our politically correct world.


Scott_Burroughs

  • Karma: +0/-0
Brad Faxon...Wally and Tim's lackey
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2001, 05:13:00 AM »
If you liked Sergio's driving distance, check out Vijay Singh's http://www.pgatour.com/scoring/sc/6567.html