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Matt_Ward

2001 Golf Magazine Rankings ... Sneak Preview
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2001, 09:19:00 PM »
John & Scott:

Yes, I am a GD panelist -- been one since 1984 and at age 44 today I was one of the younger ones that came on board 17 years ago.

As far as the Golf Mag listing I have solid sources in the golf industry. I cannot in fairness mention where or who this info came from. I passed on the info through this chat site because of the heavy interest in matters of this kind. Suffice to say -- my info was correct nearly three weeks before the related mag issue came out.

Tom:

When I made a course rating visit to the Michigan / Illinois / Indiana / Ohio area a few weeks back I was invited to play Sand Ridge, but because of heavy thunderstorms things didn't work out. However, I did get to walk the course I was shocked (even though the course has level tees!!!) that GD rated it among the 100 Greatest and that it would be among the top 60!

The Country Club in Pepper Pike is a dynamic old-style course that has an array of interesting holes and is on a good piece of parkland property. Years ago many people were talking about TCC but I guess the noise wasn't strong enough.

The Digest has TCC as the 17th best in Ohio and I think that's way too low. The course has previously been rated in the top 10 in 1983 and from 1993-1997. In my mind it belongs in such an elite grouping.

Please do not think that I am saying that Sand Ridge is not a good course. I liked it but to say 100 Greatest -- I can't buy it.
To me Sand Ridge offers a number of good holes, but until you get to the final couple of holes (I really liked 16 and 17) the pulse meter never jumps up. At least it didn't for me and I've played 90 of the existing 100 Greatest for what it's worth.

I completely agree with you regarding Victoria National -- a TF course that is not the usual cookie-cutter deal you usually get from his firm. Clearly, the site is a gem and I know from good sources the amount of visits TF personally made time and time again.

When people talk about great "new" courses in the last ten years I would urge them to give heavy consideration to Victoria National to be grouped in a top ten listing.

After Victoria National the other TF courses that make a clear impression on me include:

Wade Hampton
Estancia
Shadow Creek
World Woods (Pine Barrens)

(Sleepers but not 100 Greatest)
The Quarry at LaQuinta
Black Diamond
The Preserve (Carmel, CA)
The Club at Cordillera (Valley Course)

The other courses you mentioned cannot compare to the intrinsic qualities put forward by TCC. This William Flynn design is not in the league with Shinnecock Hills (what else would be?) but it has plenty of character and is no less in quality than his other notable designs (i.e. Lancaster, Cherry Hills). In using the Doak scale I would give it an 8. Sand Ridge is no better than 7 and I'm being very generous with that number. TCC is in many ways like Camargo before that club was "discovered." Not to take anything away from Camargo / Raynor but TCC / Flynn is a course that oozes quality. I recommend you play and / or see it ASAP.


Matt_Ward

2001 Golf Magazine Rankings ... Sneak Preview
« Reply #51 on: August 15, 2001, 10:06:00 AM »
Tom:

Just because GD listed Sand Ridge doesn't mean there aren't minority opinions conerning what courses are ranked and what specfic position they occupy.

As a GD panelist I am often disappointed when certain courses receive lofty / no consideration.

I also was not a proponent in adding categories that are not directly related to the actual layout (i.e. ambience / tradition, walking, etc.).

Usuaully I disagree with courses that find thre way in the Second Fifty listing for GD's 100 Greatest. Some of these courses ascend like July 4 bottle rockets and come quickly back to earth. I believe that will happen with Sand Ridge.

The other courses you mentioned in Ohio are all very good. I'd like to see Pepper Pike again because a few friends played it not too long ago and had some very nice things to say.

When I meant sleeper for TCC I was referring to what GD has done -- not Golf Mag. I have not played Elyria and would like to know more about it.

Thanks for the plug on level tees -- glad to see I'm making converts out of the masses.


Birdieboy

2001 Golf Magazine Rankings ... Sneak Preview
« Reply #52 on: August 15, 2001, 12:30:00 PM »
Tom:
Sand Ridge is not #16 in the country by Golf Digest its #55.  

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
2001 Golf Magazine Rankings ... Sneak Preview
« Reply #53 on: August 15, 2001, 01:13:00 PM »
I think people are netting out categories for which Sand Ridge is not eligible.  The same adjustment will move Sand Hills to 6 or 7 from about 40.

There is an extensive discussion on an old thread you may want to dig up for more.


Matt_Ward

2001 Golf Magazine Rankings ... Sneak Preview
« Reply #54 on: August 15, 2001, 05:23:00 PM »
Tom:

Thanks for the info and update.

I enjoy subtle courses as long as they have some bite (i.e. unique features) that keep your mind on the task at hand.

I'm glad you mentioned in detail the other Cleveland courses. Too often Northeast Ohio gets short shrift when compared to Columbus and even the Dayton / Cincinnati area.

I believe it behooves people who do ratings to spend some time and discover what is clearly present from both the private and daily fee side.


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