[Sri Bunga Raya]

Has there ever been a discussion/thread on Cobbs Creek (a Philadelphia municipal course build in 1916 and designed by Hugh Wilson -- architect of Merion-East). For those of you familiar with the course, I look forward to reading you comments on the layout, design features and how this course fits into the Hugh Wilson legacy.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sri Bunga;

Only 8 of the original Wilson holes exist in exact form.  Another 4 are reasonable facsimiles.  

The history of Cobbs is a little clouded but I know that some changes were necessitated by the use of the facility as an anti-aircraft missile base during WWII.  Also, it's always been interesting to me that several of the holes of the adjacent Karakung course (circa 1927, architect unknown despite my considerable research) bear a sharp resemblance to the Wilson style evidenced on the Cobbs course.

It makes me wonder if there wasn't some remaneuvering of the two eighteens at some point.  

What I really need to do is get down to the Hagley Museum and check out the old aerials in the Dallin collection to see if I can make sense of things.

As far as the course itself, I tend to like it quite a bit, although I sent Andrew Bernstein over there and he pretty much thought it was crap.  Conditions vary, although I understand the new management team is putting some dough into the place.  

If you have specific questions, I'd be happy to try to answer them.

[Sri Bunga Raya]

Mike:

Which 8 holes are from the original Wilson effort, which 4 are “reproductions”, and which 6 are “new”?

Assuming #5 is original, how innovative was the split fairway for the time? Also assuming #14 is original, how would a 600+ yard par five been perceived in 1916?

What features / characteristic on Cobbs and Karakung can you point out as typical Wilson style?

It has been years since I played Cobbs, but even then conditions were poor at best.  During the summer months you need a hammer to get the tee in the ground (assuming you were not hitting off rubber mats) and the greens have the speed and roll of sculptured shag carpet.  I think given some TLC (okay massive amounts) Cobbs could be a great municipal course up there with Beth Page Black.

Thanks for your input.

SBR

[Mike_Cirba]

Originals

1-6, 17, 18

Close (my understanding),

12, 13, 14, 15

I'd love to find that Karakung was also Wilson (the course was opened in 1927), but haven't been able to verify.  News accounts on opening day strangely didn't mention a designer.  Since Wilson did the work pro-bono, it could be a case where he laid out both in 1916, but the second wasn't built until the demand required it.  Still, I doubt it.  Other city courses built within the next few years (Juniata, Walnut Lane) used Alex Findlay as the designer, although I'll admit that Karakung doesn't look like his work.

As far as Wilson features, the problem is that he did so few courses that's it's difficult to generalize.  The bunkering work at Cobbs is pretty rudimentary, which is more support for the fact that the White Faces at Merion are more Bill Flynn's than anyones.  Ron Whitten came across some info that indicated that Wilson was not much of a bunkering guru, and even the Seaview Bay course that Wilson created had Ross in a few years later to completely revise the bunkering.

That being said, there are similarities to what you see at Merion.  You see a routing that tends to follow the ground and topography in a very logical, unforced manner.  You see extremely creative use of the creek, (on #3 it wraps around the green in a very similar fashion to 11 Merion), on 5 it splits the fairway diagonally, creating a wonderfully option oriented hole, and on 6 it fronts the green tightly on the short pitch.  There is also the same dramatics used on both courses, with the 17th of each being a long par three into an almost amphitheater setting.

I agree that a complete restoration of Cobbs Creek would be a wonderful thing, but I think the odds are probably pretty long.

[Mike_Cirba]

Sri;

In answer to your specific questions, which I just re-read, I'd probably offer the following;

The split-fairway on five was probably novel even for the time period.  Although other alternate fairway holes existed (i.e. 17 Pine Valley) then, I know of no others that come to mind that were divided by a creek.  To be honest, the only ones that come to mind I've seen since are at courses by Tom Doak & Davis Love in Myrtle Beach.

As far as the 600 yard length on the 14th, you don't have to look further than Merion #4 to see someone breaking that barrier.  

[GeoffreyC]

Mike & Sri

You need to look no further than the first public golf course in the United States at Van Cortland Park to find a 600+ yard par 5. That was pre-1900. Playing it as a high school kid with 25 cent kro-flites with smiles in the covers made it seem like 6 miles long.

[ForkaB]

....of course there was also the old 1st at Prestwick, 578 yards long, which Young Tom Morris played in 3 in the first round of the 1870 Open using god knows what sort of implements and balls.....

[Mike_Cirba]

Geoffrey,

I've played VCP as well, but I'm not sure if the 600 yarder there was part of Tom Bendelow's original 1899 re-design or done by William Mitchell in 1947.  I remember seeing a schematic in the clubhouse, but can't recall the details.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

How good is the shape at Cobbs Creek?

I played the course several times years ago and although I enjoyed the layout the turf conditions were just above hideous!

Is serious progress being made -- such as level tees, consistent fairway cuts and uniform greens? The course has definite possibilities, but I wonder if there is a serious game plan with some $$ to back it up.

Your thoughts are appreciated. Should I include the course with an upcoming visit I'm planning on making to Center City in mid-September?

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt;

I'll be completely honest and tell you that I have no real idea of the present condition of Cobbs Creek because I haven't played there in at least five years.

However, I do drive by there pretty regularly and conditions do look a bit better than the old days.  Certainly an effort has been made by new management to distinguish fairway from rough, along with the other accoutrements of modern golf such as cart paths, etc.  

Maybe I'll stop by and play Friday afternoon because I miss it.  Some features like the 9th green and the pitch to the 10th are just flat out fun.  If I do, I'll report in depth.

[Daniel_Wexler]

Mike Cirba & GeoffreyC:

I'm not sure if this would be considered conclusive information or not but in H.B. Martins 1936 book Fifty Years of American Golf, there is a map of the "original layout" of Van Cortlandt Park's first nine-holer.  The finisher is listed as 700 yards (!), played over two stone walls to a green located adjacent to Van Cortlandt Lake.

Driver-3 iron presently (except for longer hitters) but it must have been something way back when...

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