Biarritz Observations and Opinions

[Mike_Rewinski]

The only Biarritz holes that I remember in any detail are the ones at Piping Rock and Fisher's Island. In both cases there is something about the holes that I don't like. Piping's front plateau is not putting surface and Fisher's front plateau is very steep and also not putting surface. In the case of the 'better' Biarritz holes what are the characteristics of the plateaus in terms of their direction of slope, steepness of the slope, depth of the connecting valley and relative elevation between the two plateaus. In other words if you were to construct a Biarritz green what would you incorporate into the design?

[ForkaB]

Mike

The only "Biarritz" I have played is #16 at North Berwick, which I postulated was the original one many moons ago on this site, and as nobody disputed me then, I will asusme it is true.

I too find the concept quirky and visually appealing, but functionally simplistic.  Where and how do you "pin" a Biarritz.  Certainly not on the front or the middle, unless you have REALLY done your homework on the "surrounds" factor in the "green complex" equation.  Actually, the same thing could be said for most if not all "Redans."  Hit it through the green, chip back up to the back left hole.  Boring!

[herrstein]

Brian Silva did one for us at Black creek. You can see a picture on this site's review as well as the website www.blackcreekclub.com.
Both plateaus are relatively flat, pitched slightly towards the tee. The back half has a  small elevation in the back center which adds interest to the putts. The swale is about 3.5 feet deep, and just barely wide enough to allow for the occasional pin on a special day. The plateaus are about the same elevation, with the back one slightly higher.
The hole plays beautifully, in my opinion.
The tee is about 20 feet higher in elevation than the green, and there is fairway in front to allow balls to be run on to a front pin.
All in all, having seen the Biarritz holes at several Raynors, I couldn't be happier with ours.

[herrstein]

I have also played the 16th North berwick, and it is on an angle to the approach (unless you are far right off the tee) that is different than most Biarritz holes.
Although I don't agree that the 16th North berwick is boring- and I similarly disagree about the redan 15th- I don't think that the 16th is a "biarritz" hole, despite the similarities in the swale depth.
Try the 9th at Yale if you want an "unboring" hole!
I would say the 17th at Black creek, the 4th at Lookout Mountain, and the 6th (I think) at Shoreacres are anything but boring golf holes.

[ForkaB]

Herrstein

Looks very good.  To me the length and orientation and surrounds of the green make the difference.  Aploogies to you and other Raynorites whom I may have offended.

PS--can a properly struck shot be flown to the back level?

[TEPaul]

MikeR:

The only Biarritzes I'm familiar with are Piping Rock and Fishers Island.

I grew up at Piping and actually I always did like the hole primarily because the space before the swale never was greenspace. That way the hole always had real playability variety due to seasonal conditions. If the course was wet or just not running for some reason the tee shot had to be enough to fly the swale in front of the green to reach the green surface. Anything short of the green front would stop dead also due to the steep incline on the green side of the swale. On the other hand,  if the course was really running you had an entirely different choice of a vastly different shot of hitting something low and running, landing it short of the swale. This was a very cool play if you could execute it correctly to land the ball short of the swale with the proper speed and watch the ball momentarily disappear into the swale and pop out again and run onto the green. I also remember Piping's # 9 green surface as unusually large both side to side and back to front which would make good design sense for a hole like this one. So there were lots of ways to play the hole depending on differing ground conditions (which actually I remember never been too sure about--another good thing). The fact that the hole plays downhill is nice too.

There is a biarritz at Mountain Lake G.C. that really didn't seem to have much in the way of biarritz characteristics to it although the hole is named "Biarritz". I have heard that the hole may have a real swale put into the green surface in a Brian Silva restoration plan that's up for consideration. I saw the course restoration plan, it looks great and I hope the club does it!

Mike, I think the Biarritz at Westhampton is a great candidate to have a middle green swale in it. I know you said you weren't sure if it ever had one, but I think a gentle one would be great (since Westhampton's topography is basically so low profile). If you put one in where it looks like you should it would also make for one of the longest front to back green surfaces I've ever seen, which would also be very interesting for a hole like that one.

You wouldn't mind a bit more greenspace mowing and TLC, would you?

[john_stiles]

The Biarritz hole at Black Creek is good, I think,  and very fair as you see all below you from the tee.......you always approach 'straight on' as it is a par 3 hole.  The front and back portions are very large, fairly flat and accept a downhill, mid-iron well.  The dip is somewhat like the 16th (the 'Gate' if I remember the hole number correctly) at the west links of North Berwick.  The approach at WLNB is maybe more interesting as your approach varies depending on the position of the drive as mentioned by others. The 'dip' is an interesting and unusual problem to solve which makes it enjoyable in my opinion.

The Biarritz at Black Creek is fun because you have to judge your tee shot well and then deal with the dip if you haven't.  You have a level lie and all is in front of you at BC. The Gate is also fun at WLNB because the approach always is varied.

I seem to remember that the Biarritz was so 'named' after a hole at Golf de Biarritz (1888) in France built by the Dunns of Berwick ..... but imagine the Dunns carried the NB idea south to France. Willie was also the professional at the Golf de Biarritz club.  

So....my recollection was that the name and/or maybe Macdonald's copy(?)came from a hole of the Dunn's design at the Golf de Biarritz although the 'Gate' already 'probably' existed at NB and was seen by visitors such as Macdonald.

I thought the main idea associated with the name was the 'dip' in the green regardless of the length/par.

The hole at WLNB and BC are both interesting and enjoyable so a 'copy' of either is fine and the 'idea' of the dip with a fairly flat portion on each side of the 'dip' works fine.  

How about a 'biarritz redan' ..... I don't think so !!

[Mike_Cirba]

The best Biarritz I've played (not counting North Berwick, which I don't see as a true Bz), is the one at The Knoll.  I think it's even superior to the one at Yale, primarily because Yale's is sort of a drop shot, and doesn't seem to permit the run up shot to the back section.  By contrast, I recall the one at Knoll being about 230 yards, only slightly downhill, and a slung 2-iron can make the trip to the back.  Conversely, trying to stop the ball on the front section from that distance is an equally interesting chore.

[herrstein]

Rich,
No offense taken, for sure. It's all just conversation.
Yes, a well struck shot can be flown onto the back, if you are a strong enough player. I can hit a three iron just over the swale if i hit it well. I also hit two iron sometimes, but I try to hit it high.
Many guys I play with try to hit a low, hot shot onto the front, even though they could try the high shot.
Having both trajectories available to you gives you a huge advantage on this hole when the pin is on the back section.
Most of the Bz holes I have played that do not have the front section as green almost require the shot flown to the green under most conditions. Even Lookout, which is quite firm and fast most of the time, is best attacked this way, because the swale stops most shots from releasing into the green. I think this has happened becasue the ball is so much hotter now- in 1925 I bet the driver was the shot, so it released through the swale most of the time.

[TEPaul]

John Stiles:

Some kind of combination Biarritz and redan?? Yes, I think so!! Imagine all the cool conceptual and playable possibilities. Brilliant idea on your part but weak of heart of you to nix it immediately after the suggestion. We should collaboratively design this hybrid on this site.

For now we can call it a Biaredanditz! It even sounds like a monster and its name sounds like it evolved and etymologized from Scotish to French to GERMAN! Fantastic idea, my boy!! C.B. MacDonald himself went to Europe just to identify and piece together some of these separate concepts into a masterful new production-even if it may have seemed like a Frankenstein. He would be proud of you for thinking of such a thing and probably be a little pissed he didn't think of it himself.

[John_Conley]

Biarritz GREENS I've seen.

#12 at SOMERSET.  Unmistakable.  Looks like the photo on this site for Shoreacres, although the green isn't as long.  A very long par 3.

#7 at MINNESOTA VALLEY.  Biarritz green finds its way onto a par 4 here, even though it is a Raynor design.  ?  Have to ask Bahto why.  He told me some understudy with a flair for the unusual did the work here.  It would seem to belong on the #2 hole.

#16 at SOUTHERN DUNES.  Here it sits on a par 5 and doesn't work well because the drop rolls off gradually to the lower shelf instead of abruptly.  Perhaps this is by design, because it makes it very hard to get even short pitches close to both front and back pins.

#16 at HIGHLANDS RESERVE.  Mike Dasher, who worked under Arthur Hills, put this on a par 4 at his course just 9 miles north of Southern Dunes.  The base of the middle level isn't wide enough, so the hole plays very awkward.

MOUNTAIN LAKE has a Biarritz length hole on the drive in (#5), but the green has been flattened at some point.

[D Moriarty]

I have never played a true Biarritz hole (that I know of) but I find the concept interesting and the picture from Black Creek looks exciting.  

I see from the posts above that many of the Biarritz holes are one shot holes (with some exceptions.)

Before I read this thread, I imagined Biarritz holes as being two shot holes with part of the fun being the need position one's tee shot precisely in line with the green so as to take advantage of the run up possibilities.  I was actually a little disappointed to see that they were actually one shot holes. (Maybe I played too much mini-golf as a kid.)

My question is, from a design perspective, does a Biarritz hole work as a two shot hole?

[Patrick_Mucci]

D. Moriarty,

I can't see why not, understanding that the second shot should be fairly long.

[peter_p]

Arcadia Bluffs has a par-5 Biarritz, playing 550-580 downhill dogleg left. Unless you can get home over a 50 yard wide waste area, one need to lay up to about 125. The greeen is about 55 yards deep with the swale ending at the halfway point. Sort of disappointing going to a large green with a short iron.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bobby Weed built one at Glen Mills GC near Philly that is a very reachable par-five on 14, I believe.

The second shot is from the top of a hill, tempting the player to go for it.  It works quite well, actually, and the green has a very sizable swale of about 3-4 feet.  

[Ward_Peyronnin]

Most all Raynor/Macdonald courses have Biarritz holes. I assumed that Macdonald must have seen this hole at the Biarritz resort course in France although I am not sure of that at all.

Great Biarritz holes appear at the Mid Ocean Club and at Yeamans( a three part green with a Y shaped ridge controlling the flow of the ball away from the middle) and both of these can hold shots hit onto them.

There is the remains of an old Biarritz at Shinnecok on the north side of the entrance lane ,next to the little parctice course, that was abandoned when they moved away from the road/ RR in the 20,s I believe.

I think they are great long one shotter holes that don't have to rely on water on sand to make the shot a difficult play.

[George_Bahto]

to all:

The best I've been able to figure out (and Tom Doak concurs - he and I been kicking this one around for about 4 years) the 16th at No Berwick was a redesigned hole built after Macdonald built the first one at Piping Rock - It seems they used the Macdonald/Raynor mold for 16 (the Gate Hole) that green is at a totally different angle and form what I've been told it is nearly impossible to putt from one "green' to the other - ball gets airborne.

I've seen just about all the original ones that are left.

There are about 3 versions of a Biarritz. 1. the one you normally see (Yale and the Knoll are fine examples although here are many more .... like Chicago, Shoreacres, Fishers Island .... I hate to name them - it usually gets me E Mail   :-))

There are "single green versions with no actual swale - these are often mistaken for long Eden holes: there is one like this on Otto Kahn's old course, now Cold Spring Harbor CC - perhaps the 9th; there is one like this Blind Brook .... they were usually built on courses where there was an older membership and wanted the course not to be a "killer course".

Mike Rewinski's Biarritz at Westhampton is one of the most unique ones I've seen - the bunkering is totally different - a complete reverse horseshoe bunker (with the tips of the horseshoe facing away from the tee. For those of you who have never seen it this horseshoe bunker was in the very front of what we consider the "front green"  This one would be spectacular if redone as originally built.

At Essex County CC in West Orange NJ there another unique version where the green is set on an angle from the tee and (originally) you would have to cross over a set of three "stepped bunkers" on the way to the green. These are now gone but we have submitted plans to reinstate the bunkering.

I go into this at great length in the (soon to be completed) book ....... yeah baby!! Sleeping Bear probably forgot who I was but what the heck, I always have you guys.

There never was a swale at the original Chasm home in France - just the carry over the Bay to the green beyond.  Again for those who have never heard, this hole was played from an 80 foot cliff to a 50 foot cliff on the other side of the Bay of Biscay. There are NO pictures of the green in France but I do have a picture of an oil painting depicting the 80' cliff, tee box and 4 guys playing from it.

What bothers me the most about the remaining Biarritz holes is that most all of the clubs have removed the great feature Raynor and Banks built on these greens and on the fairway approaches (the front sections). They must have figured the holes to be too hard to begin with at 235-yards (mind you, nearly all of them only had a single tee - these forward tees were mostly added by the clubs ("this hole is too hard - how can we make a 3 here", I'm sure was the cry  .... gee, what's wrong if we ALL made a 4 here?).

These features are all still on the green at the Knoll.

One more thing interests me a lot. I like the one at Yale a lot for the back section is tilted to the left unlike the front section.

Also most of the swales have been filled in to some extent .... seems few could figure this hole out. Creek's swale on her 11th hole was fill in because it was often below the water table!! Their's is on an island - a very nasty hole indeed.

I think that Charlie Banks' Biarritz hole had a bit more character (on average) than did Raynor's

[herrstein]

One of the unmentioned full Biarritz holes is the 2nd St. Louis. Although the card lists it as "Double Plateau," it is an obvious Biarritz, with a 56 yard deep green which averages 22 yards wide. The hole is semi-blind, uphill 225 yards to center (and the center itself is actually in the back swale, so unpinnable, although the swale iotself is pinnable.) With no wind it's about a 245 effective shot to a back pin.
I think the St. Louis set of 5 par 3's is about as good as I have seen anywhere.

[john_stiles]

George,

Thank you for the post with the additional information.  But....please, after 4 years, kick it around a few more minutes if for my sake only and read through a few notes and then respond if possible......

Tom Dunn, a prolific golf course architect, lived in NB, revised the WLNB course (?), and worked on  Golf de Biarritz course with brother Willie Dunn. Willie Dunn designs many courses, lived in NB, designs a number of early holes (courses) including abandoned ladies course and many other early and since abandoned holes at Shinnecock (see previous post by Ward re: Shinnecock abandoned hole).

Now, enter the father of the American architects, Mr. Macdonald, who travels to  Europe (also obviously knows Shinnecock well) and basically brings back ideas of hole designs from these courses. He has written that he embraces only those hole designs that he deems worthy.  One of his tenants was to take and adopt the best and boldest features of proven holes.  Mr Macdonald has designed a few courses by 1911 and then in 1913 or so builts a totally new type of green/hole and names it a Biarritz.  

I can visualize the connection to the Chasm, with the big dip (chasm) and land on either side and hence the name Biarritz (?).

But,  I cannot picture that a big jump would be taken to an 'unproved' idea (ie totally new, unproved Biarritz green designed for Piping Rock) after so much success, critically acclaimed success,  at NGLA and CGC.

The Dunn/North Berwick/Biarritz/Shinnecock connection seems strong. Macdonald's bent to 'proven' ideas and adopting the 'best and boldest' features seems equally strong so as to preclude a totally new, unproven, untested idea such as the leap from the 'Chasm' to a Biarritz green.

Do you have any more details of changes at NB after 1913 ?  or what of the other holes at Golf de Biarritz ?   Do you have any details of abandoned Willie Dunn greens/holes at Shinnecock ?

It just seems odd to credit 'Biarritz' to Macdonald at Piping Rock in 1913. Can you add more (details) to your post ?

[George_Bahto]

John Stiles:

you asked: "But, I cannot picture that a big jump would be taken to an 'unproved' idea (ie totally new, unproved Biarritz green designed for Piping Rock) after so much success, critically acclaimed success, at NGLA and CGC."

CB only has 3 par-3s at NGLA - no Biarritz hole. I gather he didn't feel he had the topo for such a hole but at PR he sent ahead and did it anyhow, just to get the hole into the picture as a long par-03, balancing out his group of 3s (145-yds-160-185-then 235 or so).

He, Raynor and Banks built on of these monsters at every 18-hole course they built. I have copies of early scorecards of nearly every one of their courses and it is very clear. You cannot always go by toda's cards because clubs often compounded the story by adding yardage to shorter par-3 holes (mostly Eden holes).

RE: Dunn's holes at SH: I think they are all gone but as stated there is the old abandoned Biarritz green there down by the road.

It is not in the Cornish/Whitten but I thought I read where Tom Simpson did redesign work at No Berwick in the 20s - using the double green idea that CB and Raynor had already done a number of times.

D Moriarty: This concept, in my opinion, on a two-shot hole doesn't work because in most cases you would be hitting a much shorter club in that what you would hit at a Biarritz from the back tee. Macdonald and Raynor and then banks used a variation of this, the Double Plateau hole as the par-4 version. These were usually very long. So then take the concept of a double green, twist the entire green complex so the plateaux are an angle to the center-line of play and you have it. Examples: 11-NGLA - 17th Yale - a great on at The Knoll, hole #2 (a Banks version) and again virtually at every one of their courses. I've been working at North Shore CC where there are 2 excellent versions of the double plateau, #'s 14 & 17, right across the cartpath from each other. Up until a couple years ago they were contemplating leveling the 14th green.

Take this all a step further. Yale is the most literal version of the French Biarritz (Chasm hole) configuration. I have always felt that 16 Cypress was the Raynor version there when he routed CP a two months before he died. This was confirmed in Dr. Mackenzie's Spirit of St Andrews where re states that he could not take credit for theat hole which was suggested by Raynor to Marion Hollins whil they were doing the routing. That would be the most literal version of Biarritz - cliff to cliff over water.

These are my opions - I'm sure some will disagree. That's fine.

[john_stiles]

Thanks for the new additional information and more details which really help....

I assumed some 'credit' was being doled out for the 'new' idea of the Biarritz hole/green and not the brillance of Macdonald in copying/improving on the idea.

So, if you have a hole, a 'biarritz' hole abandoned in the 1920s (built well before then... don't know exactly when) at Shinnecock,  built by the person who designed the chasm hole at biarritz, you need to thank ole Willie Dunn somehow in doling out the kudos. It would be brilliant to take the Chasm idea and create a relatively artificial biarritz hole where nature allows ....but it would seem Willie may have taken that leap from the Chasm to the ground.

It must be hard sometimes to give any credit for the old holes, long ago designed by man, but if you mention biarritz, it would be bizarre to bias the discussion in only mentioning Macdonald when Willie 'may' have designed the exact same hole (and the original) next to the Macdonald's masterpiece course on LI.

[D Moriarty]

Mr. Bahto:  Thank You for your insight regarding the possibilities of a two shot biarritz hole (or rather the possibility of a two shot hole with a biarritz green.)

Mr. Bahto or anyone:  Pardon my ignorance, but I was surprised to hear Mr. Bahto refer to 16 at Cypress Point as a true Biarritz hole (and surprised to see the "mirror image" french Biarritz photo posted by Rich Goodale on another thread.)  

I envisioned a biarritz hole being defined by a biarritz GREEN, which I picture being a deep green of narrow width with a well defined chasm somewhere in the middle of the green.  

Should any hole that has a chasm in the line of play (e.g. "cliff to cliff over water") be considered a biarritz hole, regardless of the contours of the green?  Is this what most of you think of when you think of a Raynor-style biarritz hole?

[T_MacWood]

Fascinating discusion. If the original Biarritz did not have the swail and the swail at 16th at NB was added later, where did Macdonald get the idea for the swail or was it an original adaption? I believe North Berwick was revised by Sir Guy Campbell and C.K.Hutchison in 1930 -- but somehow I doubt they are responsible. Are there any other Biarritz like greens in the US, or UK for that matter, that are not the work of Macdonald and Co.

Another interesting fact, in the 1890's the busy holiday destination of North Berwick was known as the 'Biarritz of the North'.

[RJ_Daley]

Although the front portion isn't mowed as putting green, but is apron mowed instead, Yeamans Hall 16 has all the feel of Biarritz.  For Peter P., to play Arcadia Bluffs #5 as a Biarritz, just hit your second shot toppy as I did.  Leave yourself a long iron or FW wood and it plays just fine.  Really, I'd think of AB #5 as some sort of exageration to the Biarritz theme, but I loved it.

If I were ever to violate an old classic course in a egocentric and disrespectful manner, I'd put the swale and forward green portion into the #10 long par 3 at Lawsonia.  I'd never really second guess Langford, and it is a very good hole now, but I think he missed the chance for a perfect Biarritz there, if he knew what a BZ was...

[George_Bahto]

John Stiles:

John you're obviously a Willie Dunn fan - SO AM I!

YOU SAID:
So, if you have a hole, a 'biarritz' hole abandoned in the 1920s (built well before then... don't know exactly when) at Shinnecock, built by the person who designed the chasm hole at biarritz, you need to thank ole Willie Dunn somehow in doling out the kudos. It would be brilliant to take the Chasm idea and create a relatively artificial biarritz hole where nature allows ....but it would seem Willie may have taken that leap from the Chasm to the ground.

You should know that Willie DID NOT build the Biarritz at Shinnecock - Macdonald and Raynor did when they redid S/Hills in in 1916! It was a Raynor/Macdonald course from 1916 thru 1930.