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Brian Phillips

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« on: August 20, 2001, 02:05:00 AM »
I am surprised that none of you have reacted to (or maybe I have missed the thread) but how bad is this course??

I have only just managed to watch the last day of the USPGA but that course is awful.  If ever a course looked unnatural it's this one.  I can't stand the lake edges.  The whole course was a drive and a pitch.  How many times did players get out their wedges and flop it onto the green.

The pin placements did not help either many placed behind bunkers five feet on...

I cannot believe how fake that course looks.

It also proves that length does not protect par..7200 yards and par 70. Give me a break!!

Is this the proof we need to explain that length does not protect par and that it is the internal architecture that makes the game fun and breaking par difficult.

Nice edges to the lakes....NOT..

What do you guys think of the fake chipping areas at the back of some of the holes.  Phil M. landed in one of them but still decided to flop the pitch because the pin was placed so close to the edge.  What is the point in creating chipping areas if you have nothing to chip to?

Long live Royal Lytham and St. Annes!!

Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Mike_Cirba

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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2001, 03:28:00 AM »
Brian,

If our relative silence on AAC can be interpreted, it's simply that the course was too boring to care enough to say much.  


Mike_Cirba

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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2001, 03:29:00 AM »
and yes, I meant the grammatical structure of that sentence to say exactly that!

The course, in effect, said nothing.


Brad Klein

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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2001, 04:41:00 AM »
So much for natural flow. When you stand behind the greens at AAC and look back to the tees, all the features - mounds, sawles - look like they were air lifted in and dropped on top of the site. It was designed to play down the middle, but as soon as you move laterally, the integrity and flow of the grounds disappear.

TEPaul

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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2001, 06:08:00 AM »
I guess looking at that course on television I would certainly agree it did look boring and of course those beautiful wall edged lakes were winceable!

But as Geoff Shackelford is so good at doing you really have to look at golf holes and analyze what they do to the players and consequently what kind of drama they may produce from them at tournament time (particularly into the last few holes).

Hole #16 is long and so narrow in the driving area that it is surely a hole of one dimensional shot dictation architecturally. But still, with Mickelson's natural aggressiveness it produced drama. Basically his drive hitting a tree and his much longer approach and consequent 3 putt probably lost him the tournament in the end. Drama!

Hole #17, although no better looking, did offer the players very stark strategic considerations of aggressive and conservative choices and lines due to the danger and its particular angle on the right side. Basically, it's hard to deny that both players, considering their relative positions, played exactly into the strategic spectrum of that hole and their results bore that spectrum out perfectly and dramatically!! Although one doesn't have to go so far as to say the hole looked particularly good or natural, somehow it did its job strategically and design-wise, didn't it?

And hole #18!? Definitely no better looking in any kind of classic context (talk about the ultimate modern architectural look!!) was drama filled most of the week and didn't let down with the players or the audience in the final pairing. Those guys hit the ball so far I really can't understand what it was about that 490yd hole that basically made it play just as long (or longer) than some of the 550yd par 5s.

Maybe it was just the water left on the tee shot and the bunkers right and up at the green the water front and left, but somehow that very effectively got into the players heads, choices and shot making execution and produced nail biting drama to the end as well.

David Toms's tough but clear thinking "live for another shot or day" decision on his #18 approach was about as basic and classic strategic decision making as it gets and should have probably been instructive to all golfers (and poor course managers) watching live and on television.

So if we are going to be fair in architectural analysis, go ahead and by all means say that the course looked boring and modern or whatever, and even that its design was not exactly one of the classic option/angle choices or whatever. Maybe it was one of shot dictation that was more distance optional but somehow it produced some real drama.

So to give that golf course or certainly the last three holes a fair shake, maybe it would be worthwhile to analyze why that tournament played out the way it did in a design context.

Unless all of us just think what happened there yesterday was just accidental or coincidental! I, for one, can't subscribe to that! As Shackelford implies so well and then analyzes by tournament results---The proof is in the pudding!!


aclayman

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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2001, 06:11:00 AM »
I couldn't quite put my finger on it but the white sands and the hazards stone walls were definitely suspect until the comittee was up there for the presentation. It appeared that the course reflected pefectly the character and make-up of the individuals coprising the PGA of America....poor schmucks

Mike_Cirba

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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2001, 06:17:00 AM »
adam;

C'mon guy.  While they might not be flashy guys, I don't see why you see fit to pick on the PGA officials, personally.  


Mike_Cirba

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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2001, 06:25:00 AM »
Tom Paul,

While I agree that drama can be created at a professional tournament by requiring long carries over water on 3 of the 4 finishing holes, I don't conclude that this is either good architecture or particularly strategic.

Rich Goodale would argue that the holes themselves are not strategic, but can be played strategically.  I'm not a big fan of courses where the only option seems to be lay up or go for it, and watching yesterday almost proved his point.  

Thus, you had poor short hitters like Fred Funk trying to hit a 240 yard 3 wood at the 18th (after his normal 250 yard drive) because it was called a par four and he didn't want to give up something to the field.  You had everyone with sense or something to protect going for the fat part of the green on 17.  I'm not sure these decision-points are really indicative of thoughtful design.


RJ_Daley

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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2001, 06:49:00 AM »
The event produced some dramatic moments because it was a duel of the most highly skilled players hitting shots of length and precision on a demanding course in that one dimensional sense.  But, as a golf course of design interest and variety, I didn't find it appealing at all.  As said above, it looks like an artificially created challenge course of corridors and hazards that are placed just so to demand one basic thing.  Hit it here to get to there and loft it on to lag for a two putt.  How many 3 putts were there by percentage to compare with majors at the recent Opens or US Open?  While the 3 putt by Michelson was determinant yesterday, as an overall percentage for the week I suspect that the 3 putts were way down.  Yes there were some good breaking rolls, but most of them were breaking from edges to pins also near the edges, where the middles were less contoured.  Anotherwords it seemed to me that the breaks were longer and still favored the good lag and offered the ability to make long bombs, because the green slopes are long and moderate through the middles.  As for the walled ponds with stone walls so near the green surrounds, I have always said I hate that in any golf course.  Again, there is that dichotomy of seeing the fluky yet entertaining bounces off the wall produced by "Stonewall Katayama".  But, I'm amused by the bearded lady at the carnival too.  And those monotonous round or eliptical bunkers of white sand are just boring, period.  But, that 243 yard ace of Toms' was one for the ages.

But, with all our various points of view, we keep coming back to the problem of golf course design and for whom.  I wouldn't want to play the ACC.  It is too demanding and tricked up in a one dimensional sense for the likes of my high handicap abilities, even at par 72 and 6300+- yards.  It is a challenge course for the best players to make that shot with no sense of a good old golf course to be enjoyed by a wide variety of players.  So, I guess it will continue to be the situation of having certain niche archies come in to trick up and lengthen certain courses to respond to the skill set of the greatest players, while the game that the vast majority of the playing public experiences is completely different and where old style variety, quirk, and strategy is still appreciated for the love of the game.  These guys on the tour are so powerful and keen in their skills that they aren't going to be able to relate or be challenged by what thrills the lower tier of players.

No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

ForkaB

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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2001, 06:54:00 AM »
Mike

My rants many moons ago were just about semantics--to me strategy is something that intelligent beings (e.g. many humans) do, it is not something an inanimate object (e.g. a golf course) does.  Golf ocurses provide (to very varying degrees) the opportunity for golfers to design and execute strategies.

I fully agree with you that most of ACC was devoid in offerring players interesting options, and that long carrieover water are design elements that should be allowed only to those venerable courses (e.g. P{ne Valley, Pebble Beach, Cypress Point) which were built at a time when people didn't know any better.

that being said, the 18th yesterday presented us, very much by chance (because of Toms' iffy lie) with classic lessons in strategy.  First Toms had to assess and choose from two very different options.  Secondly, once Toms had done so, Mickelson had to choose just how close he wanted to try to get the ball to the hole, knowing that Toms might just well stiff his sandwedge, as people all week had been doing (albeit at diferent pinpositions) or might ewven chunk it, given the pressure of the situation.

I personally see nothing wrong with having a par 4 1/2 hole as a finisher.  The Funks of the world knew that they had to make their scores elsewhere, and if they came to 18 needing 3 or 4 they would be in deep doo doo.


Mike_Cirba

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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2001, 07:05:00 AM »
Rich,

I have no problem with long carries over water as "A" design element on a golf course as your examples point out.

I have a problem with long carries over water being "THE" only discernible design element on a golf course.


ForkaB

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2001, 07:30:00 AM »
Mike

I agree fully, and hope I am never accused of defending ACC .

Cheers

Rich


kilfara

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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2001, 07:52:00 AM »
PLEASE stop saying "ACC", which stands for "Atlanta Country Club", the former tour stop where I was a member during my formative golfing years (age 7-18). We're talking about "AAC", "Atlanta Athletic Club". Thank you.

("ACC" also stands for "Atlantic Coast Conference", but you knew that.)  

As for the drama of the course...any hole numbered >15 requiring a carry over water will be dramatic under the pressure of the circumstances. And it will be "strategic", if you'd like to call it that, if a bail-out area presents itself. But to say that AAC is a great course because it produced great drama is false logic. Of the majors last year, the Old Course and Pebble Beach failed to produce a smidgeon of drama (great golf from Tiger, but not true drama), whereas Valhalla did rather well. The Belfry has produced some wonderfully dramatic Ryder Cups. Et cetera, et cetera...

As I mentioned in another thread, AAC may actually have been an ideal major, insofar as it produced the sort of test that the pros and the public seem to want, and no classic course was harmed in the making of said commercial for the Tour. The bunkers were ugly to me, but that didn't make them bad; what made them bad was the mockery they made of the term "hazard". Higher lips and/or more punishing sand - something to make the bunkers at least as hazardous as the rough - and everything would have been fine.

Cheers,
Darren


JamieS

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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2001, 07:53:00 AM »
Adam,

It is very unfair to pick on the PGA officials.
I happen to know the current President of the PGA, Jack Connelley(Huntingdon Valley CC, PA) very well for nearly 18 years. Firstly, Jack is an outstanding individual, and is a credit to the PGA of America.
Secondly, I don't think the officials of the PGA(Pres, VP, Etc.) have much input on where the PGA Championship is held every year. I would suspect that the PGA Tour and maybe the CEO of the PGA would be more involved with that decision.
I, like you, was not crazy about AAC as a venue, but thanks to Mickleson & Toms, this years championship will be quite memorable.


Taylor Anderson

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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2001, 08:43:00 PM »
 

When I saw this picture taken by a friend, I asked if Fred Couples was hitting from a fairway bunker. Nope - this is a greenside bunker. I was at the AAC on Saturday and the critisims of AAC are valid. However, the course did produce it's intent: provide a dramatic finish (less TW of course...) for which I think deserves some credit. The game these pros play is so different than the normal person that trying to compare a course "prepared" for them (AAC, Valhalla, Hazeltine) is really not fair.


JamieS

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« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2001, 08:53:00 PM »
Adam,

I should've said it's unfair to criticize the "elected" officials of the PGA, they serve two year terms, and represent the PGA members from across the US.


aclayman

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« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2001, 08:54:00 PM »
I apoligize to the distinguished gentleman of the PGA of America.

I probably was associating the look of the greyheaded committee with the probable look of similar committees that have upset the architectural purists, on this site.

The schmuck comment was based in my opinion of them getting waxed (finacially) by the PGA Tour.

I meant no disrespect to the individuals on the dais and did see some "real"(less than stodgy) qualities in the eyes of the ceo.


Gary Sherman

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« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2001, 09:11:00 AM »
I had the opportunity to view the course first hand Wednesday and again on TV this weekend.  I was trying to come up with a description of my visual perception of the green complexes.  (By the way,the artifical look on TV is the same in person.) I finally concluded that it felt as though I was looking at an Autocad rendering!  The white, saucepan bunkers are too perfecly trimmed.   Ridges are very sharp and look like the intersection of computer generated surfaces.  There is no real feel of flow to the green complex.  It is as if someone created a 3D virtual prototype on CAD and then plunked it down on site.

Bill_Coggins

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« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2001, 09:50:00 AM »
Hey!

Don't go insulting CAD renderings by comparing them to what you saw at AAC.  CAD renderings are wonderful when done by an expert.  

Only an hack makes 'em look like AAC, a.k.a. BAD CAD renderings.

What are you trying to do, ruin CAD's reputation?  Have a heart man ...


TEPaul

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« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2001, 10:08:00 AM »
MikeC:

Very interesting! You and I are mostly on the same page about architecture, so since it appears that we may not be in this example, maybe now is the perfect opportunity for us (and others) to have a really interesting and valid discussion about the strategic ramifications of AAC, about architecture, what strategy is and isn't and some of its finer points. I'll present my case and you can analyze it and critique it and vice versa.

First of all, let me say again that the last three holes (or last five holes) of AAC and the entire golf course, for that matter, is not one I consider in any way to be natural looking. Just the opposite in fact! It is extremely modern looking in style, construction, its entire presentation to the golfer and viewer! And I know you know that I definitely prefer a golf course with a far more natural look in almost everyway.

That being said, though, to really analyze a golf course's strategic ramifications alone, one should move past the "look" of it (modern or classic and natural) to a large extent. Not entirely, mind you, because a course like a Pine Valley with its ruggedly fearsome "look" alone can have a large pyschological impact on some golfers and their decision making. But if that golfer could somehow put aside his concern and inure himself against that fearsome "look" (something that Crump was very much asking the golfer to do), then that golfer could start to concern himself with the very much more meaningful strategic ramifications.

I'll also concede that the type of course that AAC is strategically is one of far more "shot dictation" than some of the best of the classic courses, their multi options and multi features with their (feature) placements and their angles. Many times that to me is more interesting than many modern courses but it's not a given, therefore, that modern courses do not have strategic ramifications and sometimes extremely interesting ones.

The choices at AAC are without doubt starker (the margins for error are far slimer), and as such the shot price-paying is starker, more meaningful and consequently the strategies may be more ones of "shot dictation" and one dimensionality compared to some of the best of the classic multi optional style. I'm sure too that very stark choices in design have a way of radiating themselves and of affecting the golfer too--whether this is good or bad in a strategic design sense is probably subjecive!

But still, I think you would have to admit that the options available to those two players yesterday were in no way automatically made for them by the design of the course! As you could see by the way the tournament played out through the last five holes there was much opportunity for those players to make some extremely interesting, dramatic and gut-wrenching choices that varied widely. The choices may not have been as numerous as you and I might have ideally liked, but nonetheless the spectrum was wide and meaningful.

I also in no way agree with your analogy of what a player like 'poor Fred Funk' is faced with on #18. If an architect was intent on designing holes where all golfers and certainly all touring pros were faced with the exact same shots and options then those holes would not be much more interesting to me than bowling lanes with their pins.

Funk didn't succeed on tour by hitting his drives as long as Mickelson. He succeeded in hitting them more accurately and probably in making more conservative (and intelligent) decisions in the course of a round or tournament than Mickelson. Although I really don't know, I would be willing to bet you that Funk makes far less birdies and eagles than Mickelson in the course of a year but that he also makes far less doubles and others! This kind of thing makes watching even tour golf far more interesting than if those guys were more the same.

There is another contradication here too regarding what many of us say about golf holes. How many times have we heard people on here say that the game is nothing more than massive drives and pitching wedges these days and that's really boring. We often seem to long for the bygone days when really good players had to test their long irons (Ross's test of a good player) or fairway woods or maybe even, Heaven forbid, the choice of laying up so as not to pay some horrible price! Well, here we finally have a hole where even the touring pros are occassionally faced with long irons and yes even the occassional 3 wood or the prospect of laying up! And, Oh My God, it's a par 4 too!!

Because the choice is determined largely by water, does that make it less of a choice or does that make the design less good? How could it? Would it be more interesting if the hole had no water, was still 490yd and the choice facing the player was simply could he hit the green and a real close shot or was the price for missing it maybe coming up 20yds short with a recovery chip? Each of us can answer that in his own way, I'm sure!

The point to me is that hole was doable in a number of ways, set up maybe not by a huge  number of choices, but still very meaningful ones from tee to green. It's design might not be real nice looking to many of us but it got its strategic job done well and very dramatically. Unlike, for instance, that ridiculous #17 hole at Valderama which had the capacity to shut down even the best layed plans and shots! It's also pretty interesting to note that many of the final holes at AAC and certainly the last one did not exactly take their toll from players who hit really bad shots. Most of the price was paid by players who made iffy choices with quite well executed shots. Again the deal strategically there was one of some slim margins for error and I'm fairly certain that fact was not lost on those touring pros!

And furthermore, Mike, I hardly think a hole like #18 is going to force or humiliate even a guy like Funk into making some really dumb choice like going for the green because he thinks people expect him to. It's probably far more likely that he made his decision more on where he stood in the tournament and what that meant to him. If he wasn't going to pay a real big price in dollars or whatever, he probably thought the risk was worth it. Shingo's choices throughout the tournament were more interesting in that vein and certainly more important since he was right there most of the way. His high risk gambling choices and shots also supplied the PGA Championship with some of its best drama!

And the fact that #18 was a par 4 instead of a par 5 probably has little to do with the decision making of a tour pro too. Their thinking is generally based more on what their fellow competitors are doing on a particular hole and where they stand and so forth. Whether the hole is a par 4 or a par 5 is likely almost meaningless to them. What is meaningful is how they can make the lowest number without really risking making a high number and is generally what they consider. Some of us might fall into that kind of forced poor decision making but we don't play golf for a living either!

Another thing about the decision making which I found interesting on #18 with the last group was not so much whether Toms could carry the water or not. He clearly had a club that could have done that--his 5 wood. But he happened to be in a spot that was both slightly sidehill and downhill too making that shot a bit more problematic (and I guess one would fairly have to attribute that subtelty to the design. Anyway he could probably have carried the water but maybe too well, too hot or whatever and made the whole situation for himself more complex than a simple lay-up, SW and scrambling par the so-called hard way! Toms also did not hit his longest or best drive on #18 which is understandable on a hole like that in that pressure packed situation.

So again, I agree with the previous posters that AAC is not the kind of course I like to look at--I like the older style and the more rugged natural look better and maybe a course with more choices and even subtler choices. But that preference doesn't mean to me that AAC didn't have some interesting strategies and choices to it.

Lastly, I've always thought that strategy or the consideration of what is strategic on a golf course meant trying to get the ball from the tee to the hole in the fewest shots, always having to weigh WHAT might make you pay a price or some high price in that attempt. And then of course you need to factor in the more subtle ramifications of where you stand in the tourament vis-a-vis your fellow competitors and what exactly the course gives you in any particular place in that vein.

So I don't know if I would say that AAC was actually really good architecture per se, but if good architecture involves strategic ramifications and particularly dramatic ones and also dramatic results, then I would have to disagree with you when you say that AAC was not particularly strategic. There were some gut wrenching choices made at the PGA Championship yesterday all over the place and particularly on those last five holes, and fail or succeed most of the choices involved some shot making that went from pretty decent to spectacular.

It all involved some interesting and gut wrenching choices and some great shot making too, so if that wasn't strategic, then what is strategic?

The question is not rhetorical! I'm sure you will have some interesting counterpoints and that's what this web-site is all about.


Mike_Cirba

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« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2001, 10:41:00 AM »
Wow, Tom...my brain is still hurting from trying my passionate best to get BarneyF to talk about architecture on his resignation thread and then I come over here and read your detailed rebuttal!  Phew...  

As always, you argue thoughtfully and persuasively.  In the interest of a more fully thought-out counter of my own, I'd like to buy a little time at the moment and think before responding.  I know I have an emotional, gut-level reaction to the "stark" quality of the holes at AAC, but I want to approach this topic more intellectually if I can given the important questions you've raised.

I'll reply as soon as I can get my mental house in order.  If others choose to jump in and bail me out in the meantime, I won't dissuade them.  


Mike_Cirba

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« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2001, 10:48:00 AM »
and Tom...as I sit here thinking about it, I think the lack of strategy at AAC I cited has more to do with the demise of the stymie than anything else.

 

Patrick will probably return my 60-degree wedge right between my eyes this Thursday at Inniscrone.  


TEPaul

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« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2001, 11:52:00 AM »
MikeC:

Funny, when I was writing that long post about the strategic ramifications of AAC and describing many of them as "stark" I was thinking that might be the one thing you would first come back and counterpoint about. And so you did and so you should, in my opinion.

That very distinction could be a lot of why we like and admire things to do with one style or another. Probably why you and I like the subtler maybe softer, more natural style. This kind of subject probably gets into some real nuances about architecture and things like the various meanings of strategic ramifications that most golfers would never think about or want to think about, but that's what we are able to do quite well on here!

I will just leave you with a few examples to mull over. Some of the best analyses on strategic ramifications I've ever read come from Geoff Shackelford on real tournament situations.

One example was how ANGC raised the water level on Rae's Creek and prettied up the creek too. The next spring they were scratching their heads about why many fewer competitors in the Masters were going for the geen in two. Despite what some people think about the touring pros they are not in the slightest bit dummies about course management and what will have a negative effect on their score. The crux of the carry and therefore the decision making of going in two had become too "stark" for many of them. So the temptation factor was down, it was reduced. And Shackelford can make a damn good case that ultimately "temptation" is at the root and base of all really good strategic golf architecture!!

So the next year ANGC deprettified Rae's creek, dropped the water level back to what it was and got the previous desired result of more temptation and more gambling. And certainly the "stark" extremely slim error margin between success or failure at the 18th at AAC is no better than the mistake that ANGC made with Rae's Creek. But the 18th at AAC did not have the comparison of being easier to manage at one time either and although those pros are not poor managers they do like to go for things--we do know that.

And certiainly we know they don't all think alike, thank God. When it comes to stark margins for error or whatever apparently someone forgot to clue in Shingo!! I guess he has his own take on temptation and risk/reward and was apparently proving good sense wrong until the fates finally showed him otherwise!

The second example might show some of us how a pro might think in a pure numbers context. It will also show their attempt to be strong minded and positve about their shot making ability. It's probably a bit apocryphal and certainly is pure Hogan but when asked why he layed up on either the 13th or 15th at ANGC he said: "Because I didn't think I needed an EAGLE!!

Those are a couple of interesting examples of what goes through really good golfers like tour players heads and comes down to how they look at the design of courses and their strategies, subtle or stark!


GarySmith

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« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2001, 11:56:00 AM »
So, TEPaul, to cut to the chase, am I correct in saying whereas you prefer finishing holes such as Merion, Winged Foot, et al, that you did think AAC's did provide damned interesting theatre and strategy/options yesterday?

Mike Cirba,

Will be interested to see your replay to TEPaul's post.


Mike_Rewinski

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« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2001, 05:46:00 PM »
Those had to be the softest championship greens I have ever seen. Did they have a lot of rain, or are they bentgrass greens that needed a lot of water to be kept alive. Those pros were throwing everything at the pin even from 200+ yards out.