News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Cookie Cutter

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2001, 08:10:00 PM »
Thanks CC, that explains a LOT!

I've always wondered why Brookline's bunkers didn't look like the rest of Rees restoration work's bunkers.  By that I mean, I can look at the bunkers at Congressional, Hazeltine, Atlanta (both courses), Baltusrol, Bethpage, Hazeltine, and on and on and see by their stylized shaping that Rees had been there.  

Brookline never fit that cookie-cutter mold, and that always perplexed me.  


BY

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2001, 09:44:00 AM »
I had heard they hired Crenshaw, is it true Foster was hired?

Patrick_Mucci

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2001, 04:52:00 PM »
CUP Cutter,

If you would be kind enough to provide me with Mr. Gerald Church's home phone number, I would like to call him to confirm or deny your post.

Thanks.

Cookie Cutter,

What would you like to wager that you can't tell from looking at them, what bunkers Rees touched and which ones he didn't touch at Hollywood ?

I also doubt, without prior knowledge, that you could discern his work at Baltusrol.


CupCutter

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2001, 07:54:00 AM »
Patrick:

Mr. Gerald Church's Home telephone number is 781-555-1212

I'm sure he would welcome the call from a total stranger asking about his relationship with Rees....Newsflash, TCC could care less about the 2005 PGA.  The friggin' Ryder was enough of a headache...go ahead give ol' Gerry a call...but proceed with caution.  He is a BEAR...(golden?)


Patrick_Mucci

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2001, 09:09:00 AM »
Cup Cutter,

You let me worry about Gerry, just get me his phone number, thanks.


BillSpence

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #30 on: August 22, 2001, 11:01:00 AM »
Hi Folks,

I thought I would chime in on this one as my good friend Sean at The Valley Club said this had been posted!!

TCC has affiliated itself with Coore and Crenshaw to work with the club on an "as needed" basis in the future. Ben is adamant that no changes be made at the club and feels it is best left as it is!!! So does the club, by the bye.

No changes are contemplated at this time, but should something NEED to be done requiring the services of a golf course architect, Ben and Bill will be the guys.

Second, Rees has not worked at TCC since 1985, although he has visited and played since. Rees worked well with the club at that time, but, for everything there is a season.

Third, as CupCutter states, all of the bunker, tee work, etc. done for the Ryder Cup were done exclusively by us. The "us" includes Captain Ben, who had some very good ideas that were put into the mix as well.
He is in love with the course and shone through our entire working relationship.

In 1999, as in 1988, there is NO ONE person that should ever think of taking credit for what was a team effort by dedicated professionals.....Especially 1988!!! There were many people, some now gone, that put that program together. That has always been the case at TCC.....teamwork!!!  That is why the club has remained one of the few great, "unchanged", (relatively speaking), courses in the world. Of course, I'm biased, but the TCC membership has done a remarkable job through the ages in maintaining a very important and historic golf course.

I have been very lucky to have been there for the past 17 years. I can't think of a club I would rather go to.  


SPDB

  • Total Karma: 0
Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2001, 12:20:00 PM »
What changes can Rees Jones take responsibility for then ?

sean berry


CupCutter

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2001, 12:40:00 PM »

Patrick Mucci:

Please!  Let's grab a mit and get in the ballgame!(tough love)

I know I was not "Off" with my assesment of the Jones/TCC relationship, as stated so eloquently (and clearly) by Mr. Spence (thanks, Bill)

As for home telephone numbers being given out, I don't have Mr. Church's number and I certainly would not give it out if I did...but I do have Rees Jones cell phone...wanna call him???

Personally, I could give a rat's ass about the whole thing...I guess I should have kept my mouth (keyboard) shut!

Believe me, Patrick, it's nothing personal.  I admire your passion...

End of discussion for me however...thanks.


BillSpence

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2001, 12:40:00 PM »
Well, Sean, that was a very long time ago.

As I look back, I would credit Rees with adding credibility to, what was a big project for that club. It gave a very nervous membership some reassurance that we had a professional designer consulting with us along the way.

However, having said that, there were NO plans drawn, or anything like that.  We just used some photos from 1933 to recapture that old feel of the place. Our group at TCC would meet everyday to look at the work and, along with Clyde Hall, Rees' shaper, would do what we felt best conformed to the feel in the photos.

If there was a vision of what the golf course should be for 1988 and beyond, it came from a man not mentioned yet in this thread, Ken Burnes. Ken was the guy that hired me and was the Grounds and Open Chairman. If history intends to place one guy at the top of the list when it comes to what TCC really is about, IMHO it would be Ken. I was there every minute of every day and that's how I view it!!!

PS to a comment made above about Gerry Church....Gerry happens to be a super nice guy and is actually very quiet and reserved.
The term "Bear" does not describe Gerry at all and I have known him since 1984!!!!
So there!


Cookie Cutter

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2001, 12:58:00 PM »
Bill Spence,et.al.

This is quite amazing to me.  The "restoration" of TCC for the 1988 US Open was primarily where Rees Jones established his reputation as "The Open Doctor", yet the work doesn't look like anything I've seen him do before or after.  

Are you guys actually saying that he was a titular figurehead?

And Patrick Mucci, I haven't been to Hollywood so I don't know what he did there, but are you suggesting that you can't tell his work one course from the rest?  It looks pretty much all the same to me when he's finished?  Haven't you observed the same?


CupCutter

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2001, 01:06:00 PM »

My humble apologies to the reference to Mr. Church being a "bear"...it was actually meant to be humorous (weak attempt).

***So I guess this means I won't be   cutting cups at TCC any time soon (grin)


Patrick_Mucci

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2001, 01:46:00 PM »
Cookie Cutter,

I'm saying YOU can't tell which bunkers he touched and which ones he didn't touch at Hollywood.


Patrick_Mucci

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2001, 02:01:00 PM »
Cup Cutter,

Your first paragraph is in direct conflict with Bill Spence's post about the bunker construction at TCC, and Ree's own shaper Clyde Hall being an integral part of the team responsible for the work.

Perhaps you should have consulted with Bill prior to making your post.

Bill Spence,

Thank you for "source information" about TCC and some of the work there.

I've always maintained that good leadership usually insures a great product and that knowledgeable dedicated individuals are key to that pursuit.  Ken Burnes sounds like one of the men who voluntarily devote their time and efforts to a game they/we love.  What is his backround as a player/committee person with regard to golf ?  How did he get selected to head the operations ?

I'm curious about how the idea to convert
# 2 to a par 3 came about, and also the exclusion of # 9, #10, and # 12, then the use of # 1 and # 2 combined, #3 and # 4 on the other nine.  Could you enlighten us on this configuration ?  Thanks.


BillSpence

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2001, 02:30:00 PM »
Hi, again.

Am I becoming a regular on this site today???
You may get sick of me, who knows. My very best friend, who is a superintendent in Canada, is probably thinking that right now, if reading this.

Anyhow, to answer the question of Rees as a figurehead....no, in my opinion he was a member of our team, nothing more or nothing less. The leadership fell to Burnes....no question about it. He took the heat and was my support system through the very difficult years of bringing TCC to a state of USOpen
readiness.

Ken is now the CEO of a very major, world-wide corporation, (you all take advantage of the product his company manufactures!!!), and will be very active in the upcoming PGA at TCC in 2005. At the time, however, Ken was a managing partner of one of BeanTown's oldest and most respected law firms. He loves the game and loves the outdoors.  He taught me what managing a place like TCC is all about and one helluva' lot about thinking. He is one of the most brilliant people I have ever known.

The so-called "Open" or "Championship" course was first used in 1963. I am not sure of all of the reasons, except as a practical matter these days, it is the only way in which we can have a somewhat adequate practice range....we use our regular course ninth hole for that, and the tenth and regular driving range are used for tents and the like. Primrose 1 and 2, (451 yd par4), P8 and P9 are used in lieu of "regular" 9, 10, and 12.  I'm still trying to figure the whole thing out!!!!  

PS:  Uhhh, Mr. CupCutter....you know I know, right????

See you all.


Ron_Whitten

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »
I seem to recall reading that it was P.J. Boatwright (with Joe Dey's blessing) who pretty much determined the Open routing of 1963, reducing the short second from a par 4 to a par 3 (back then, considered a weak hole; these days it would be considered a neat drivable par 4), incorporating holes from the third nine and combining two holes to make the infamous par-4 11th. P.J. was the
man in charge of championship course selection and set-ups for the USGA for many years. Maybe his son, P.J. Jr. could shed some additional light.

BillSpence

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2001, 02:48:00 PM »

Ron,

I should have known that if anyone would know, it would have been you.

Regards,

Bill


SPDB

  • Total Karma: 0
Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2001, 05:20:00 AM »
There was also the concern of adding some length. 10 is a short par 4 (a completely blind second shot over a wall of wild grass would no doubt elicit a number of complaints from pros), and the 12th is a very short, downhill redan.

The primrose, while being a third nine, has a couple of holes that have real character (and teeth), and I think there was an overall interest in putting together the collection of TCC's best 18 out of 27, which, with some par adjustment, managed to work out beautifully in its routing.

In my mind, the 12th and 13th holes on the Open Course are some of the strongest on the property. In fact, the 12th may be too difficult, players draw a long iron/fairway wood into a well bunkered and somewhat undulating green. The 13th may be the prettiest hole on the course which demands accuracy off the tee to secure a level lie from which to hit your second shot.


Pete Adams

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2001, 06:24:00 AM »
SPDB: The 12th a redan?????

SPDB

  • Total Karma: 0
Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »
I meant that the 12th on the Clyde/Squirrel course (as opposed to the composite Open Course) is a redan one shotter.

it is not used on for events


Pete Adams

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2001, 07:08:00 AM »
SPDB: I know the hole is called redan, but is it really a redan hole?? It plays more like an island green. What do you think??

SPDB

  • Total Karma: 0
Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #45 on: August 23, 2001, 07:32:00 AM »
Oh yes, definitely. In fact I think it is better classified as a "short" hole, in the MacD/Raynor tradition. In fact (if I remember correctly) i think the green is pitched toward the player, which I think would disqqualify it from being a true redan, a la North Berwick

Pete Adams

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #46 on: August 23, 2001, 07:39:00 AM »
SPDB: I agree, "Short Hole" is a better description.

N. Pierce

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #47 on: August 23, 2001, 12:31:00 PM »
Hello Bill Spence from Canada eh!  I heard TCC was being discussed here and thought I might add my two Canadian cents worth!  IMHO, the fourth hole at TCC appears to be the product of many great minds (including that of Bill and his team) that have come together, not in the traditional sense of real time, but in the sense of historical time to leave their mark on her.  I relish the day she bites all who are displeased with her in the A$$!

Good to hear you're still at TCC after, how many Bill, 17 years!  Cheers.


BillSpence

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #48 on: August 23, 2001, 01:37:00 PM »

Hello NPierce, up in Canada. You are obviously one very smart guy.........I think we ought to arrange a trip down to Number 4 for a close up and personal look by you.

TCC and Royal Montreal have the longest international club competition in the world, or so they say.....a touque is awarded annually to the winning team. I'm still not sure what it is and would appreciate some help on this site!!!

We Love you Canadians.  Bring the Molson Red, OK???  


N. Pierce

Newsflash: Rees designed the fourth at The Country Club!
« Reply #49 on: August 23, 2001, 04:14:00 PM »
Bill: Re: that long-standing tradition between TCC and Royal Montreal.  If indeed a touque is awarded to the victor, and since you seem to be unaware of the nature of a touque, I can only assume TCC hasn't faired well in the competition for at least 17 years!