News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Roger Hansen

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« on: August 23, 2001, 05:38:00 PM »
We are just in the finishing stages of the front nine on Hidden Creek and are cutting grass on the entire back nine. I have to say that it looks great and I am sure that it will be a gem. My super and I took a few shots on the back nine and I found it to play as expected. Coore and Crenshaw are the best. Their attention to detail is tremendous and they and their team are great fun to work with. I am going to London next week and playing Walton Heath, Sunningdale, and Swindley Forest to get an idea of what real heathland course are like. Any ideas?

Mike_Cirba

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2001, 06:22:00 PM »
Roger,

I really can't be of much help regarding Heathlands golf, other than to wish you an enjoyable trip, but I did want to say that I can sense your excitement about the work C&C are doing at Hidden Creek.

I have to ask though; is part of the reason for your trip to the Heathlands motivated in some part by wanting to see how Hidden Creek stacks up?  From what I understand, there are similarities in topography and style of design.


TEPaul

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2001, 09:29:00 PM »
Roger:

I don't really know what "heathland" style is like either. And I don't blame you for going over there to find out what it looks and plays like over there.

But don't forget what you said--that you have the best guys working for you. What they do, is really great architecture--and site specific. It's in New Jersey, not Europe, and what Bill & Ben do is  loose "conceptual" copy and their own interpretation of "styles" and that will be the best that Hidden Creek, Egg Harbor, NJ, USA can be!


Tommy_Naccarato

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2001, 09:39:00 PM »
Roger,
You don't know how your post is sweet music to my ears.

Thanks for making a very intelligent choice in selection of golf architects. C&C certainly are in a class all by themselves.

I too can hardly wait to see it next time I venture back east.


Paul_Daley

  • Total Karma: 0
Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2001, 10:48:00 PM »
Roger:

Your excitement comes through loud and clear.

Next to authentic linksland, a heathland ennvironment represents the best golfing terrain, in part, because of the sandy subsoil, and the plethora of dwarf species plants that predominate. The heaths are stunning, but sadly in Britain, are being thinned out. This has been a slow, but insidious trend for many years.

On many heathland courses it is not uncomon to find heather (many varieties) gorse, broom, bracken, lichen, plus trees such as: birch, scots pine and oaks. Heathland regions are commonly referred to as: upland or lowland heaths.

Evolutionary wise, much has gone into the formation of heathlands. In Britain, one of the key moves was when the early farmers cleared the land of trees to pave the way for grazing. Some elements: turf, heather, gorse, were collected, and utilised as fuel.
While this enabled humans to survive, the activity ensured that trees would not reappear.

Just as there is no one kind of linksland, heathland content greatly varies. Some areas are colonised only by low-lying bushes and grasses, other heaths contain heavily wooded and dense scub. Some heaths are a combination of both of these examples.

The Melbourne Sandbelt contains 13 or so golf courses. Around 1891, though, vast heathlands roamed over the many suburbs stretching out from the city, down to the bayside suburbs, such as Frankston. Indeed, Royal Melbourne's original location was East Malvern and with many fairways lined by golden gorse, and other heathland species, it served to remind homesick Brits about their mother country. Today, the heaths have all but vanished on account of urbanisation!


TEPaul

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2001, 03:34:00 AM »
Roger:

There was a really good in depth thread on here maybe up to a year ago all about the details of "heath" and all sorts of stuff about the "heatlhlnd" style course (with photos and drawings of heath). I think it might have been started because of the start of your project when it became known it might be a NJ concept of the heathlland style. It should be well into the back pages now. I don't know how to use this search function though---maybe somebody else does.


Roger Hansen

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2001, 04:10:00 AM »
Tom, I agree that Bill and Ben are creating their own style of architecture and it will not be like anything in Great Britian other than we have similar topography. I particularly wanted to see what kind of grasses and plants are in the heathland courses.
Mike, You are right that I would like to see how Hidden Creek stacks up against the so called true heathland courses. I also love to play in Great Britian and Scotland and I am fortunate in having a wife that likes to travel and play with me.
Paul, thanks for your comments, they are very helpful in understanding the heathland courses. We are trying to transplant heather from a nearby blueberry farm and we think it is working. We are getting about 50% of it to live.

Noel Freeman (NAF)

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2001, 05:06:00 AM »
Roger,

I played 3 of those heathland gems 2 months ago..I played Sunningdale Old and New as well as Swinley Forest...

What you should look for...

1)The proliferation of trees on several holes at Sunningdale..Especially on Sunningdale New's Par 5 6th...A spectacular dogleg right with trees planted that take away from the hole.  These trees need to be taken out..

2) Wide open vistas still in spots. Swinley by far has the best views in my opinion..If you play the new at Sunningdale you will a tremendous amount of land abuts the course that could be used to build another course but won't for I guess environmental/zoning probs.

3) Strategic Bunkering..You will love the bottleneck hole on Sunningdale Old..And Harry Colt really makes you think at Swinley for tee shot placement

4)Par 3s..Swinley has the best set of par 3s this side of Rye Golf Club (where you should drive 2hrs south and play)..You will not forget them...4,8,10,13 and 17 are some of the most fun you will ever play with one shotters...4 is quasi redanish, 8 has a huge dropoff if you are right of the green..13 has  the best rhodoendrons I've ever seen left of the green and 17 has great bunkering.  Swinley is my favorite course I have played in 2001 next to Shinnecock..My time at Swinley was magical..You will probably not see anyone else playing there.

The par 3s at Sunningdale New are also great..

The heather and general sandy soil combined with the open vistas are what made heathland golf so special to me..Hopefully Hidden Creek will be as blessed...Look fwd to seeing the finished product...

If you can, try and play the Addington or Woking as well..I did not have time..but I will my next visit.


Mike O'Neill

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2001, 05:07:00 AM »
Roger,

In addition to Bill and Ben, two great guys, make sure you get your fill of Dan Proctor, one of the all-time greatest guys ever. He is certainly a gem. If there are any stray dogs or laborers on the project, I am sure he has adopted them.


RT

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2001, 06:34:00 AM »
Roger,

Here's an interesting link to get a good primer on lowland heath, where you'll find Sunningdale located.
http://www.chobham.org.uk/common.htm

Noel is right, if you have time get over to Woking GC and the Addington, and I might add the Berkshire(2).  Send me an e-mail at: r_talley61@hotmail.com and perhaps a few of us Londoners can meet up with you next week on your visit.

RT


John Morrissett

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2001, 11:40:00 AM »
Roger--

Thanks for the update.

I was recently at Friar's Head and, as excited as everyone is about that course, it was clear they are also quite taken with Hidden Creek.  It sounds as though the two courses are very different but that each fits its site well.  That's the benefit of working on no more than two courses at a time -- they both turn out first-rate.

Please keep us posted, and I hope to see Hidden Creek next spring.


Will_Smith

Hidden Creek by Coore and Crenshaw
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2001, 08:21:00 AM »
Roger-

I have no doubt that C & C have produced a gem for you in NJ and I am sure that your trip will be fun as well as educational. There are so many great courses in the Surrey region that I hope you have at least a week to scope them out. If I were you though, my first stop would be to look-up Ian MacMillan, the super at David McLay Kidd's new course called Queenswood, a super upscale private course that boasts Cartherine Zeta-Jones as one of its members. When I visited there a a year ago, Ian sat down with us and gave a great power point presentation on the heathland region and the evolution of heathland golf. He is the man to talk to about the differnt types of grasses and plants to be found on those courses. Ian oversaw the regeneration of tons of heather at Hankley Common, which now can boast that it is one of the must pure heathland courses in the region and well worth the trip to check out. Also if you make it to Queenswood, it would be interesting to compare how another modern  architect tackeled the challenge of building a heathland coursre. In any event, have a great time and I highly recommend purchasing a very detailed road map as the roads over there are as perplexing as Jarmo Sanderlin's wardrobe.  

p.s. Don't miss St. George's Hill, and one of the best #10's in the world.