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Jim Reilly

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« on: August 16, 2001, 09:54:00 AM »
The subject heading for this post refers to my new scoring system to match a course against a course in a match of cards.  We all recognize the failings of a match of cards (I believe it was Mark Fine who pointed some of them out in a recent post; a world class hole gets the same credit as a bad hole which is only marginally better than another bad hole, etc.), but it is still fun to do.  It has occurred to me that the 10 point must system from boxing addresses some of the failings of the straight match play format and lets face it, don't we usually start to do this sort of thing after a few stiff ones when we are trying to either discredit our interlocutor's favorite course or defend our own, and, therefore, it has more the characteristics of a fight than a friendly game of golf.  

As my inaugural match, I am pitting The Addington (raw, guttural golf; basically a young Roberto Duran) against Walton Heath (technically solid, esthetic, but also with guts and a modicum of charm; Marvin Haggler in his prime).  Before we begin, a quick explanation of the 10-point must system.  The winner of a round (hole) will normally get 10 points, the loser 9.  Extra points are deducted from the loser if it is a particularly bad hole.  Likewise, I will deduct points to the extent one hole dominates another so that 16th at Cypress Point will likely win by several points against most holes.  

Okay, enough rambling, now pretend you hear Michael Buffer doing his "rumble…" thing.

The Addington   vs.    Walton Heath

1.  9            9    Both courses have a pointed deducted for such mediocre opening holes (the Addington for those ugly bumps around the green and WH for its flat featureless waste of a 1 shotter).
2.  10            9    The fall-away green at the Addington tips the scales.
3.  10            9    No. 3 at the Addington sets the tone of a match early wiht a tough uphill one-shotter; bailing left usually causes you more trouble than if you wind up in the bunker short right.
4.  9            10 Any hole with a bunker in the middle of the fairway, right next to the prime landing area for the preferred approach, is going to be tough to beat; also, at this point, the bunkering at WH starts showing some world class form.
5.  8            10   The 5th at the Addington is not a bad hole, but No. 5 at WH is world class.  A dogleg left that tumbles downhill to a green that can best be described as a stormy sea.
6.  10            9     The Addington takes this one as the ravine that cuts into green from the right plays on your mind like an overdue assignment you failed to turn in at work before sneaking off to play golf.
7.  10            9     Much more natural, the Addington's one shotter is like hitting into a secret garden.
8.  10            9     The drive up the hill and the green site which narrows and runs away from the player at a 45 degree angle give this round to the Addington as well.
9. 10            9     This is a tough call as WH's 9th requires proper placement of the drive to avoid being blocked out by fir trees, and possesses a cleverly bunkered green complex which encourages a shot from one angle which would be foolish to attempt from 10 yards away.  On the other hand, the Addington's 9th gives you all the room you need to hang yourself on the right, but the more you challenge the fariway bunker and ravine on the left, the shorter your carry to the 10th green.  Exquisitely simply, I have to give the nod to the Addington.
10. 9            10    Fowler obviously knew how to build downhill par 4s as here is another excellent one.  The player that challenges the left bunker is rewarded with a clear approach to the green.  The carry over the tree in the ravine at the Addington doesn't elicit the same "pleasurable excitement" as is derived from playing no. 10 at WH.
11. 10            9     Here it is a matter of subtlety.  The Addington's tiny pitch one shotter requires finesse and can be birdied by both the long handicapper as well as the scratch man, but the scratch man can easily make a 4 with an indifferent approach.
12. 10            10   This is a tough one for me.  I love number 12 at the Addington, but recognize the artificialness of stair-step landing areas and the randomness of the lie of a shot that trickles past the 240 mark.  On the other hand, no. 12 gets points for originality (I've never seen anything like it) and I've pared the hole 2 out of the three times I've played it while only going for the green once from the top shelf.  No. 12 at WH is a nifty little short 2-shotter, but with mere mortals hitting 150 yard 9 irons and pitching wedges, the guy who bails left just doesn't suffer as much as he used to.  A sporty little hole and you still need to get your pitch near the pin if you want the best chance for your 3.
13. 10            9    This is a matter of quality against quality.  Nevertheless, the fact that the tee shot at no. 13 at the Addington will occasionally pop into my head for no apparent reason is enough to give it the edge.
14. 10            10 WH possesses a fine 14th which is the second of back-to-back par 5s (and 3 within 4 holes!).  A nifty long hole that requires the golfer to take some aggressive angles on his tee shot and approach if he wishes to get home in two.  The Addington, on a tear, isn't about to let up and offers a great view of London in the distance and a drop shot drive (if such a thing exists) before a tricky approach to an elevated postage stamp green.
15. 10            9   A bear of a hole, the false front on the green at the Addington's 15th is particularly neat.
16. 10            9   Two great par 5s; I prefer the Addington's roller coaster 16th because it really makes you want to, and makes sense to, go for it in two if you pull off the drive.  However, to do this, you must either hit a draw or some kind of insane high cut over the trees to put yourself in position.
17. 9            10 If the Addington could guarantee a fox would run out of the woods and steal your opponents ball like it did the last time I played there, I would have given it the nod.  As it is, Fowler's fortress green takes this one.
18. 10            10 Two strong finishing holes, but neither one distinguishes itself enough to earn the point.

Going to the cards we have the following decision:

The Addington   174
Walton Heath   169

A surprise dominating performance by the Addington.  It maybe the most underrated golf course in the UK.  I don't think many "name" or ranked courses would like to go toe to toe with this little terror, even in its present condition (which is not that bad).  Taking nothing away from Walton Heath, as it is a fine course that I look forward to playing again, but the Addington has holes that are consistently a little more sporty, unique and just plain fun to play even if WH possesses the better terra firma.

JR


Rich Gooale

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2001, 10:25:00 AM »
Jim

Great idea.  A much richer (and more fun) way of comparing courses.

Rich

PS--I just did TOC vs. Dornoch and it was a TKO on the 8th for that "float like a butterfly, sting like a bee" Highland links.


John_Conley

  • Total Karma: 0
Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2001, 12:32:00 PM »
Yes, the hole by hole you favor is an interesting way to compare courses.

No, I don't think it works in all instances.  

This "10-pt. must" quantification is nice for an engineer or anyone else who needs reason in the world, but going hole by hole will never capture variety, balance, or strength of routing.

#14 at the course I grew up caddying on, Interlachen, isn't much of a golf hole.  You could play the same hole on a rural course anywhere in Minnesota or Wisconsin and be unimpressed.  But it works there, because the course really needs a little meat at that point - and a 440 yard par 4 fits the bill.  Conversely... Golden Valley, a unheralded Tillinghast design in the area, could really use a hole like that toward the end of the round.  It also has 5 par 3s that are about a 6-iron for a strong amateur - so much for balance.  (P.S.:  I LOVE G.V.C.C., so don't take this to be a knock against them.)

I played a real nice course Sunday.  The Island course at Innisbrook flows nicely.  It starts out a little tight with doglegs.  #6 is dead straight and very narrow.  #7-11 are pretty hilly and then it opens up for several holes with more gradual contours.  I don't know that hole-by-hole captures the spirit of such courses very well.

Still, interested in seeing your "bouts".  I just will personally won't take them as gospel because of the structural shortcomings I perceive in the system.

GOLF MAGAZINE came out this week with some words on their course rating criteria.  I like it.  It simply says YOU the rater get to weight this stuff how you want and give it a "bottom line" rating.  Makes sense to me.

Keep it up, I'd like to see your matches between two courses I've actually played!


Jim Reilly

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2001, 01:06:00 PM »
John,

Of course you are right.  Any system to match golf hole against golf hole will not capture all the nuances a course has to offer.  You mention some important ones that make a course more interesting (routing and what I like to call "pace" and I think you refer to it as "spirit" is very important to me).  Some bad things that this system will not capture are, for example, a long uphill walk between a green and the next tee, a banal routing (where each hole individually might be fine) or a carts only course.  My answer to this is two fold:  (a) a boxing judge is supposed to judge on 4 criteria, two of which are defense and ring generalship (although these are almost ignored from the scoring of fights I've seen), but I equate these to the factors that you mention; certainly if a course has a series of holes that demand length and you come to a postage stamp 1 shotter or a clever drive and pitch hole, you are going to be inclined to like these holes more than if the pace of the course called for some other type of hole; I try to include this in my assessment when deciding to score a "round"; the Addington scores well here, for example, because the stretch of 11 through 13 has great pace (a postage stamp one shotter, a 470+ cross-chasm par 4 with an indeterminate landing area, a 230 yard 1 shotter to a shelf of a green surrounded by heather and finally a downhill drive and pitch 2 shotter); and b) I don't expect anyone to take this too seriously.  As you have correctly pointed out, any system that fails to measure the totality of a course will give a skewed result.  

For my next match, I'll try to match two courses from the states.

I'm thinking Sand Hills vs. Crystal Downs (but that could get messy!).

Rich,

I'm glad you like it and please feel free to promote your own fights (although, if I were you, I would leave Royal Dornoch off the card or others might accuse you of being a Don King).

My own assessment of TOC vs. RD had the TOC up 78 to 76 through 8; but that's just me.


ForkaB

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2001, 01:27:00 PM »
Jim

I actually can be objective about RDGC, and even have been so once or twice on this site.  However, don't have me promoting any "fight" in which TOC is involved as I can't think of any reasonably well known course that would not be ahead of TOC by about 60-50 after the 1st 6 holes.  I gave the old lady a 10-9 win at the 7th vs. RDGC just to let her keep some of her dignity.

Just me, although I know there are many others who feel the same say, as there are for your point of view.


Jim Reilly

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2001, 02:11:00 PM »
Rich,

You got Hoch, we got Doak!  

Seriously though, I respect someone who is willing to speak their mind when they know it will be unpopular (at least in this forum).  I'll pick your mind about TOC on another occasion as it's getting late here.  


ForkaB

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2001, 02:23:00 PM »
Jim

If Scott and I can close you and Tom out before the 19th (where I'll be double teamed), we'll be OK.

Happy to have my brain picked and vice versa.  It would be a novel experience to have a frank discussion of TOC (or any other GCA icon) on this forum.

Sleep tight.

Rich


Howard C

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2001, 03:23:00 PM »
We..Have..A..Split..De-Cision.

Steve Wilson

  • Total Karma: 0
Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2001, 04:50:00 PM »
Rich,

While I realize an offering of your round by round description of TOC vs. RDGC might imperil your existence as long as you are residing in this country (a certain nameless but partisan electrician is a factor here), I think a blow by blow from you would be fascinating, erudite, informative, controversial and capable of inspiring a thread generation triple digit responses.

If you fear for your life, I was thinking you could prepare this dispassionate comparison  prior to your return to Scotland, and you could hit  "Submit Topic" just before boarding the plane.

Of course, secure here in West Virgina, it's easy for me to suggest that "Why don't you two guys go outside and see who's toughtest."

Some days you play golf, some days you find things.

I'm not really registered, but I couldn't find a symbol for certifiable.

"Every good drive by a high handicapper will be punished..."  Garland Bailey at the BUDA in sharing with me what the better player should always remember.

ForkaB

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2001, 06:22:00 PM »
Steve

I'm not completely sure that the electrics on my computer are fully secure.  It is highly possible that there has been a virus inserted which will cause random typos to appear if I do what you ask and hit the submit button.

However, life is short, so I'll give you a taste.

Round 1.  TOC starts out quick with its location in the middle of the auld grey toon and the sight of the hordes of tourists beside you and the elderly R&A members sipping their Kummels behind you.  And then you see the hole.  A bog standard Scottish public links with a stream out there at 330 yards and with a pancake flat green behind it.  Dornoch comes off the ropes with a fascinating short 4 which requires skill off the tee and in the approach shot.  10-9 Dornoch

2.  TOC.  A blind tee shot over the gorse.  A semi blind second shot to an elevated front-back double green.  Dornoch.  One of the finest short holes in the world.  TOC takes its first standing 8 count.  Dornoch 10-7.

3.  TOC.  A blind tee shot over the gorse.  A semi blind second shot to an elevated front-back double green.  Dornoch replies with a tee that opens onto one of the most glorious vistas in golf and a medium length par 4 which requires a long draw off the right side bunkers to allow for an aerial apporach into the green.  Any drive off line will necessitate a ground game second shot which has to be aimed at the left hand bunker, or even to the left of it! to get on the green.  Dornoch 10-8

4  TOC.  A blind tee shot over the gorse.  A semi blind second shot to an elevated front-back double green.  The best hole at Dornoch.  Draw into a sharply sloping l-r fairway and then find your way, by air or by ground to the best green complex on the course.  It is all in front of you.  Dornoch 10-8

5.  TOC.  A blind tee shot over the gorse.  A semi blind second shot to an elevated front-back double green.  Dornoch.  One of the finest short par-4's in the world.  Drive from an elevated tee to a fairway where it is obvious you must play left to get the best approach angle to the long (60 yards) and narrow green.  Bunkers on the right to catch the bail out.  Dornoch 10-8

6.  TOC.  A blind tee shot over the gorse.  A semi blind second shot to an elevated front-back double green.  Dornoch.  Another one of the best par-3's in the world.  Gorse and bunkers to the left, and steep slopes to the right and the back, and a false front that sends many "good" tee shots back towards your feet.  Dornoch 10-7.

Most referees would have stopped this fight long ago.

PS--my descriptions of holes 2-6 at TOC are taken from my memory of a previous post by one of the course's most staunch and electrically competent defenders.......

Cheers

Rich


kilfara

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2001, 12:21:00 AM »
Katz! One straitjacket for Mr. Goodale, please! Please!!!

Seriously, Rich, your jibes at the Old Course have crossed the proverbial line. You're now criticizing features (quirky ones, mostly) of the course which you'd probably celebrate virtually anywhere else. And your descriptions of TOC's holes are much higher on virulent partisanship than pinpoint accuracy. You're so erudite elsewhere...why do you have to carry such an Everest-sized chip on your shoulder when it comes to the Old Course?

Jim, the boxing metaphor produces a much better ranking system (IMHO) than Ran's beloved "match-play" concept, insofar as it allows 10-8 and even 10-7 decisions where appropriate. (Closer to stroke play than match play, really...the next system will undoubtedly be to give every hole on a course a rating of "eagle", "birdie", "par", "bogey", etc. and then compare scores relative to par at the end of the day.) That said, the problem with any hole-by-hole system is that it still reduces the grandness of the whole to the sum of its parts, whereas I don't believe "the whole" can be avoided in any proper analysis of a golf course. Great courses have a unity which transcends the greatness of their individual holes.

Cheers,
Darren


ForkaB

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2001, 01:23:00 AM »
Darren

Don't get too defensive or Dr. Katz will be seeking you out too!

As I'm sure you know, I'm partly trying to have some fun, but also trying to learn.  I honestly do not for the life of me know what it is I can or should learn from holes 2-6 at TOC.  They meld together in my mind as forgettable variations on the same theme.  I love quirk, but I hate anonymity and repetition in my golf courses--whether they be the latest Nicklaus or Rees design or the TOC.

None of the sources I have at my disposal, including Herbert Warren Wind, World Atlas of Golf, the various GCA'ers I have broached this subject with, and my memory of the manuscript of your book have been able to enlighten me.  (Maybe I need to buy the finished product! ) Nobody on this site has ever stepped up to the plate and defended this stretch of holes or even tried to tell me what individual features they have that I have been missing all these years.  Maybe you or Jim Reilley would care to do that.  I really would like to know why my mental image and that of others is such a blur.  I would really like to know what Bobby Jones or Alister McKenzie or CB McDonald or even Jack Nicklaus learned from these holes and how they applied that learning to their own design philosophies.

I really am far less interested in Course A vs. Course B than in learning why either or both are worth spending time on playing or even thinking about.  Just call me....

Perplexed in Paradise


T_MacWood

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2001, 03:41:00 AM »
Rich
With a little effort you can find the views of MacKenzie, Macdonald, Jones etc. May I suggest Bernard Darwin's very detailed analysis of the links, not surprisingly it is one of the most honest and insiteful appraisals. It starts, "Really to know the links of St.Andrews can never be given to the casual visitor."

I'd actually be interested to here more about The Addington and Walton Heath, as interesting as one more attempt to explain why Dornoch is better than the Old Course (from the former's biggest advocate and the latters biggest critic) might be.

Jim
How would you compare the interest in the greens of the two courses?

What are the similarities or differences in the design/presentation of the two courses sand hazards?


Jim Reilly

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2001, 03:52:00 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for keeping me on track.  I'll post some more comments on the Addington and WH after work; in the meantime here is my feeble explanation of why I like TOC.

Rich,

Well said about the ultimate aim of this pastime of matching cards and this website in general; it's to learn about golf architecture.  My feeling about the match of cards is that it is a great stimulator of debate and, therefore, a good thing.  

I'll pick up the gauntlet, although, having only played TOC once (although I walked it each day for a week while in St. Andrews), I might not be the best champion.  To begin, I must note that I find your singling out of the first six holes a little curious.  I find them very much in character with the rest of the course and what I like about it (as discussed below).  I also dislike the amount of blind drives.  I do not dislike the blindness of the drives because I think them unfair, but rather because with all those neat little (and not so little) pot bunkers out there, and all the beautiful fairway undulations, I miss the excitement of watching my ball land and bound along the links.   I digress, however, as I am supposed to be defending these holes.  

Even before I had played the course, by walking it and studying a yardage book, I could see different possibilities for attacking the pin depending on the line taken off the tee.  The width of the fairways allow two players, or even 4, to have extremely different challenges in approaching the hole; and, therefore, once they are aware of the challenges presented from the different areas of approach, choose the one best suited to their game.  In short, the fairway width, the plethora of bunkers and fairway undulations give the golfer lots of choices with different challenges to each.  An ancillary benefit to this is that a mis-struck ball will usually allow for a heroic recovery, but will also likely require a shot much different than what the golfer intended (a low running draw rather than a high cut, for example) and thereby affords the possibility of thrilling matches for both the scratch and long handicap player.

Another reason why I love the Old Course, including the first six holes, are the beautiful green contours and how naturally they blend directly into the fairway (there are a couple of pancake flat greens, no. 9 for example, but this a welcome breather from some of the roller coaster rides that come before and after.  Certainly I think the shots at the old course become more interesting the closer you get to the hole.  Often, when chipping or pitching (at your average course) you will have a certain primary task (e.g. carry a bunker and land it soft, or judge the amount of left to right break of the chip).  At TOC, if you are taking the land route to the hole, it is not out of the question to have a quadruple breaking chip!  Of course you can always try to fly it to the hole, but for some reason, the ground game seems to work better (at least for me and I'm from California where flying it in is the rule), and I find it a lot of fun.  

As for the first hole, admittedly, the tee shot must be the easiest shot in golf.  Nevertheless, how many golfers put their tee shots ob right?  The pressure of hitting in front of a larger gallery than most golfers have ever played in front of before or will ever play in front of again is a great feeling.  I also think it is an integral part of the course as when is there not a gallery at the first at St. Andrews?  After placing your tee shot, I have to disagree that the approach to the green is boring.  If the pin is placed anywhere in the front half of the green, you have to flirt with the Swilcan burn if you want a reasonable chance at your 3.  I love that shot and look forward to playing it again.  Of course you can always just knock your approach to the back center of the green, but if your opponent in a match is willing to take some chances, you might find yourself one down in a hurry.  

To summarize why I like these holes, and the entire course in general, I would say it is very strategic and natural and a lot of fun to play (especially in a match).  I would like to see the result of my drives more, but if I were to give the course a greater criticism, it would be that it no longer is a true representative of Scottish golf (although it might not have been for a while as I believe Darwin spoke of the ballot as well).  I say this because when I think of Scottish golf, I think of pitching up to Dornoch at 4:00PM and thinking that the course was closed because nobody was around (and the starter, when unable to find me a caddy, putting his clipboard down and looping my bag for me on my first tour of the course); I think of sub 3 hour rounds and I think of pulling off amazing shots and looking around at the empty links and laughing.  I can't really hold that against St. Andrews as its popularity has made it so, but it prevents me from thinking of St. Andrews as the place I wish I were when I'm ready to get a way and play some golf.


ForkaB

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2001, 03:56:00 AM »
Tom

"Really to know the links of St.Andrews can never be given to the casual visitor."

What does this mean?


ForkaB

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2001, 05:33:00 AM »
Jim

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

You are right, of course, about the fact that the width of the area available off the tee and the interaction of the effects of this width with the complexities of the greens give TOC its special appeal, to which I am not completely immune.  Also, you do get some very interesting recovery shots in those rare occasions when you miss one of those 2 acre greens .  None of these characteristics, however, is unique to TOC, nor is the fact that the more you study any course, the more you learn to respect it and learn from it.

You also remind me of the main reason why I prefer many other Scottish, Irish and Englsih links to TOC--visibility.  To me, the ability to stand on a tee and see the challenges in front of you, all the way to the green, is one of the prime requisites of a good golf hole.  A few blind shots here and there are OK for variety, but a constant diet of them is just not my cup of tea.  I like to be able to stand on a tee and look for the position of the flag before deciding what strategy I am going to try to employ on the hole.  Once I have launched my pelota forward and found it, I like to be able to have at least some visibility of the next challenge facing me and what the risks and rewards are of the alternative lines of attack.  I also like to be able to do this without the services of a caddy or a course guide.

These preferences of mine are largely better served by a number of courses other than TOC.  Others may disagree.  I do find it interesting that the only 2 holes on TOC that have been widely replicated, by CBM and others , 11 and 17, meet my criteria, whereas many of the others do not.

Now, get back to The Addington and Walton Heath before Tom MacWood gets more irked.

Cheers from California

Rich


Jim Reilly

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2001, 10:26:00 AM »
Tom, et al.,

The first thing to note is that the Addington is on a more severe site than WH.  Consequently, many of the greens at the Addington get their movement from the slope upon which they are built, and they slope in all directions.  This can make for some tricky puts because many of the greens look relatively flat and unless you take into account the grade of the surrounding terrain, you can wind up with some long second puts.  It also adds interest in that it makes you think about where you want to leave your approaches, pitches and chips.  In addition, on average, I would say the greens at the Addington are about half the size of the greens at WH and a few are raised making their effective landing areas even smaller.  

As noted above, the greens at WH are on the large side, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are easier.  They do appear to have more contour than the greens at the Addington, but this should be expected due to the size of the greens and the more level ground upon which they are built.  Certainly holes like the 5th at WH are heavily contoured and a joy to play.  Hell, Cambridge could have a course of study called the 5th at WH.

As for the bunker placement and shape, WH appears to have kept the character of its bunkers (the best are irregular shapes that seem to have been hacked out of the ground, with stuff growing in and around them) to a greater extent than the Addington.  Also, WH is the more heavily bunkered course and relies more on sand hazards for strategy off the tee, where the Addington relies more on the slope and contour of the ground, curving of the holes and rough that has as many species of flora as Kew Gardens (not to mention the ball stealing foxes!).   When I was in the clubhouse at the Addington, my host pointed out a picture of the new course, which was plowed under after WWII.  The bunkers in that picture, which I believe was the 18th of the new, looked fantastic and fit in perfectly with the wild character of the rest of the Addington (irregular pits with heaps of heather growing along the edges).

One other thing to note is how wonderfully firm and fast WH played.  We played from the white tees, which are a little over 6800 yards.  The Addington, also firm and fast, but not true Heathland, felt longer (because of holes 3, 4, 5, 12, 13 and 15, which all, incidentally, play up hill) at 6242 (Par 68).


Paul Turner

Fight Night: The Addington vs. Walton Heath
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2001, 01:36:00 AM »
Jim

Yep, The Addington is uniquely brilliant and I'd have to give it the nod over Walton Heath.  Although my scoring would be closer:

I'd halve 6,11,16 and certainly give the 14th to WH.  

But I'd also give the 12th to The Addington.  I love that hole, two "white knuckle" shots and a beatiful green to top it all off.