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Ally Mcintosh

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Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« on: March 26, 2012, 05:47:05 AM »
I'm putting together a design presentation for some magazine raters and wanted to show some good before and after examples of artistic bunkers that have lost their shape or character... These are readers rather than industry people so are not generally as well versed in GCA as those on this site... Hence the higher profile the course (Augusta would be nice), the better... but drastic changes on much lesser known courses are obviously of great use too...

Thanks a mill for any help,
Ally


Joel_Stewart

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2012, 12:43:56 PM »
Augusta is a great example.  I've been reading numerous articles about it recently.

Dan Wexlers write up is one of the best.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/in-my-opinion/wexler-daniel-augusta/


Olympic Club also has gone from rough edge bunkers to round and oval amoeba shapes.

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=40054.0;wap2

If you pm me I may be able to send you some photos.

Steve Burrows

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2012, 01:41:13 PM »
Ally,

This image is taken from Shackleford's history of Riviera Country Club.  The present day bunkers are impressive -- they are certainly deeper -- and though perhaps not "dumbed down," they are, in my opinion, not nearly as artful as when the place was first built.   

...to admit my mistakes most frankly, or to say simply what I believe to be necessary for the defense of what I have written, without introducing the explanation of any new matter so as to avoid engaging myself in endless discussion from one topic to another.     
               -Rene Descartes

Niall C

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2012, 01:45:57 PM »
Sorry, can't agree, those 1927 bunkers look awful. Looks like the bunkers were painted on to a hollow whereas the more recent photo makes it look as though chunks have been taken out of the ground. Or at least it would do if the edges weren't so neat.

Niall

Howard Riefs

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2012, 02:38:24 PM »
Great number of examples from the renovation of LACC North.   

https://www.thelacc.org/files/NorthCourse_Commemorative_Edition.pdf
"Golf combines two favorite American pastimes: Taking long walks and hitting things with a stick."  ~P.J. O'Rourke

Ben Sims

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2012, 03:17:47 PM »
Courtesy of our friend Tom Dunne at Out & Back.



Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2012, 03:39:01 PM »
8th at St George's Hill. If Paul Turner sees this I'm sure he'll provide you with links to images.

In a way this also chimes with Frank Pont's post about revetted and sand-faced bunkers. He's probably got some great suggestions.

Sean_A

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2012, 04:13:55 PM »
Ally

Some examples from Prestbury.

#4




#7




#9




St Georges Hill #8




Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2012, 04:54:33 PM »
Thanks all,

Sean - Although Prestbury and St.Georges' Hill have clearly lost a little drama and artistry in their bunkers, there is still a kind of understated elegance about what is there now, I feel. In Ireland, we have such a prevelance - especially inland - of the amoeba shaped, sand faced playpits, that many of our golfers believe that this is what a bunker "should" look like. They think Augusta's bunkers are the be all and end all because you know, it's "Augusta".

The example of Greenbrier Old White (?) above is a great one. The trouble is that the MacDonald / Reynor geometric shapes are so alien to golfers on this side of the pond, that I feel like I may be shooting myself in the foot in trying to make a point if I show those photos.

Mark - I wouldn't like to tie this in with Frank's thread primarily because I disagree with his premise. I do not think that Muirfied, Lythym & Hoylake should return to sand faced bunkers because I've seen no evidence to suggest that what was there in the 20's and 30's is more attractive than what is there nowadays. Revetted bunkers, apart from being practical for many circumstances, can be most attractive and artistic. I wouldn't want Muirfield's to be any other way.

Joel - I'd love to see some photos. I'll try and work the IM...

Sean_A

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2012, 05:32:23 PM »
Ally

Yes, I agree that Prestbury's bunkers are okay even if not quite up to the original standard.  However, in the case of #4, I would say the original placement is superior to what exists today. 

Concerning St Georges Hill, I would disagree.  The old bunkering on #8 looks superior to what is in place today.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2012, 08:33:28 PM »
Regarding St. George's Hill #8 -

I was there early this month and had a few thoughts about the changes over time at #8. It is still an amazing setting for a par-3 and great hole. SGH was one of my favorite courses in Surrey. However, If you look closely at the amount of people on the green in the old pictures and relate that to the size of the bunkers you will see what an enormous scale and size this hole is at. In such an exposed spot on the hill side, I would bet the changes are mostly an erosion issue over time (England never gets wind and rain ;D). On such a steep slope, between compaction, loss of sand and play over 100 years, the flashed faces would have to erode. Seems like grass and heather would be helpful ways to sure up the banks and keep it from eating away at the putting surface above. Even the grass that is there now is certain to be a heavy compaction area that gets resoded or roped off a bunch.


If you look at where the paths have been made, they are clearly trying to direct everyone to the sides for a reason (also see the wear pattern developing heading the back left bunker)...


... is crazy steep!



no facts here, just my best guess... I was just thinking about why this would happen while standing in the hallway looking at the picture recently.

Sean_A

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2012, 02:10:48 AM »
Jaeger

I can't help but wonder at how much better this hole would be with the old bunkering and the green expanded between the left sand traps and down the tier to the right.  While a good hole now, this could be one of the great par 3s of the world with just a bit of imagination. 

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Tom Kelly

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2012, 06:44:09 AM »
Jaeger

I can't help but wonder at how much better this hole would be with the old bunkering and the green expanded between the left sand traps and down the tier to the right.  While a good hole now, this could be one of the great par 3s of the world with just a bit of imagination. 

Ciao

Sean

I have never been there myself but judging by those old photos I would have to agree with you.

The photo with the crowds on the green looks fantastic. It looks like the bunkers bite into the green edges a little bit like on the Melbourne sandbelt. By reducing the size of the green and bunkers it looks like they have lost a few wonderful pin positions in between the bunkers.

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Before and after examples of "Dumbed Down" bunker shapes
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2012, 11:28:39 AM »
Jaeger

I can't help but wonder at how much better this hole would be with the old bunkering and the green expanded between the left sand traps and down the tier to the right.  While a good hole now, this could be one of the great par 3s of the world with just a bit of imagination. 

Ciao

Sean - You seemed to have skipped over the part where I agree with that... however I'm not sure it is actually possible to achieve.

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