[Bill_McBride]

Being a golf addict, I am sitting in my den, balancing the check book, checking out GCA, watching the start of the final round of the "NEC World Championship."  Boy, if there was ever a great example of classic vs modern design, the aerial shots of Firestone vs my vivid memory of Pacific Dunes is it. The smooth-edged, symmetrical bunkering at Firestone vs the wild contouring and rough, grassy edges of the bunkering at Pacific Dunes.  The parallel fairways of Firestone vs the innovative routing and varied terrain of Pacific Dunes.  I guess this is probably not a valid comparison because of Firestone's flattish parkland terrain vs the incredible terrain of Pacific Dunes, but I'll take Doak over RTJ Sr anytime.  Every hole at Firestone looks like every other hole.  Maybe PD vs Spyglass would be a more valid challenge, and I think PD takes that one every hole.  Except maybe #4 Spyglass!  Thoughts?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Bill,

I understand your well balanced thoughts, but here is my questions:

Seems as if you consider the course built 40 years earlier the modern, and the brand new course the classic?  That said, I have always thought Firestone a bit repetitive, as you do.  Was surpised to see the deep, wild looking rough Phil almost lost a ball in.

Second, how do we know that some superintendent won't smooth out the Doak bunkers? RTJ's style was always known for for jagged edges, but they became impractical.  I presume Tom's services and fee (like RTJ before him) doesn't include laying "his dead body" out over the course at all times to prevent the course from evolving.  Or, does it Tom?

One good recession, or a new management company, or new equipment, or any number of causes may cause changes to PD.  In fact, I bet they have ALREADY started to change the course. I hope there are lots of pictures, because this will be a point of restoration discussion on GCA (or some successor) about 50 years from now.

Jeff

[T_MacWood]

Jeff
Are you saying the bunkers that Tom Doak and others are building are impractical and may eventually evolve into something closer to Firestone?

It is obvious the bunkers of MacKenzie, Thomas and Thompson have soften over the years, but why do you think they continue to be so visually appealing?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tom,

No question in my mind that the lacy edges are attractive.  When doing my own bunkers, I try to get them as lacy as possible, figuring they will soften up.  Of course, too lacy and the on site superintendent will raise concerns to some degree (or the corporate agronomist who oversees him) and even some players will complain.  I do recall playing Sand Hills with a few guys who wondered about what happened to a shot in one of those notches at the bunker lip.  Probably screwed was not what they wanted to hear....and they didn't seem to appreciate how the bunkers fit the landscape.  We'll write them off as card and pencil guys...

The other thing that makes the Good Doctors bunkers appealing is the proportions. Some bays of the bunkers are 15 feet wide, others 20, or 45, etc. The noses also vary in width, and come not straight down, but at slight angles, and each one is different.  The sand heights in each bay is slightly higher or lower, the depths of the capes, slightly different. He or his on site guys had a great touch. It takes a lot of time to get them right.

Where my bunkers have approached the beauty of these beauties, it has been the result of marking, looking, remarking, relooking, and marking again, sort of a modern version of the Wilson Bedsheets, but with spray paint.  One marking doesn't cut it, and neither does one opinion, as it always helps to have two of us looking at things.  And I can tell you the ones that aren't quite as good because for some reason, the airlines just won't hold the plane for this type of reason

In my opinion, it it these proportions that let them withstand a bit of smoothing, and still make them attractive.

Jeff

[Bill_McBride]

Jeff:  yes, I think of Firestone (and Spyglass too) as "modern" because they were built post-Depression.  And I see Pacific Dunes (and Bandon Dunes too) as a return to "classic" design, I guess because they don't have aircraft carrier tees, or big round greens with symmetrical bunkering....etc etc.  Again, terrain certainly plays a part.

With regard to maintenance of bunkering: most of the bunkers at PD appear to have been there for many years. A good example is the deep bunker left of #11, the super par-3 along the cliff. It flows into the natural sandy waste/weedy grass which in turn supports the cliff side.  Most of the bunkering which flows out of the greenside dune complexes looks like it's been there forever.  I think maintenance may be easier if there is no standard of "perfection" for the greenskeeping crew.  But probably not!

[aclayman]

There was a wonderful piece on PBS the other night that introduced you to "The derriere guard", a group of artists(Composer, painter and archies) who have focused on the classical, rather than the modern influences that surround them. Their passion for the classic style seemed to be rooted in their respect for their respective masters.

The same must be true with golf, and  comparing the two styles ends up as an exercise in futility. After all, you can have your preferences, I can have mine, and after all, we are all entitled to our opinion.

One of the subtle nuances that I noticed after seeing the art and hearing the music was that these classical artist only took the "good" from the past masters and using their modern abilities, made the art better.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I loved the bunkers at Pacific Dunes too, but appreciate the comments made by Jeff. We were told the bunkers at Pacific Dunes are a maintenance issue already. They are having a lot of sand movement and need to refill many bunkers monthly. The evolution of Pacific Dunes will be interesting. In fact the only thing I really feel Bandon Dunes has over PD is the playability and maintenance of the bunkers. doak look great and oh so natural but we had many a wild time figuring how much if any sand was left or it is was so full to be unique on the course.

[Jay]

Does anyone know how many rounds are projected to be played at Pacific Dunes/yr.?

[TEPaul]

Are we remotely on the same page here? Is someone suggesting that Pacific Dunes is not a "classic" style course because it was  built last year or that Firestone is not a "modern" style course because it was built forty years ago? Come on, get serious!!

Or, is someone seriously concerned that Pacific Dunes's bunkers are going to get cleaned up and made to look modern because some sand might be blowing around at this point? Are you serious? That would be one helluva a maintenance project to turn Pacific Dunes's bunkers into something that looked modern (like Firestone).

Hey Hook, why don't you go out and clean up Maidstone's bunker's, particularly the duneside bunkering to be all clean and modern so it will be an ongoing maintenance snap? Yeah right!! I bet you spend tons of money and time getting those bunkers on #8, #9, #10, #14 just the way you want them--all clean, modern and pristine. Right? Right!!! And how long would that last? Did you say unitil the next big wind and storm? I thought that's what you said!

And some of our contributors are now worried that Pacific Dunes's architecture is about to change? Jeeezus the golf course opened about six weeks ago for Chrisssakes! Now it's a classic that can't be touched??

Tom Doak, you keep your Goddamned hands off that Pacific Dunes!  Do you have any idea what it is and what you're dealing with??

[John_D._Bernhardt]

No I just think things will change with the bunkers at some point. Some bunkers may go away and some may be altered. I do not forsee anyone changing the basic look and feel of them. I am not comparing to firestone or any other course.

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Oh and some sand is an understatement. I have never played anywhere that has such consistantly strong winds in the summer. The sand really blows here.

[TEPaul]

Some sand or lots of sand!? At a course like Pacific Dunes, what does it matter?

Well, I should qualify that because Doak and a few of his men mentioned exactly how it matters. But there doesn't seem that much to be concerned about at Pacific Dunes even if things did change with the weather. Of course if the entire tee fell into the ocean on #4 or something like that I'm sure no one would be completely shocked and something would be done about it! On the ocean holes I have no doubt that the wind does blow very strong and thing might change because of it, but so what? If the course changed in such a way that the club and course needed to do something about it, I'm sure they would.

There was a story in an account at the Maidstone I came across. Not all that many decades ago a member of Maidstone got a bright idea in his head that #8 should not be so blind (by the dune blocking the green). So the dune was removed and the green became much more visible.

Well, I guess Mother Nature had other ideas, because in almost no time the dune blocking the green and making it blind was right back almost exactly like it was before that member got that bright idea that the green was too blind!

[John_D._Bernhardt]

I will defer to you gentlemen who have discussed this with the one and only doak.

[ForkaB]

John

I won't defer--yet.  Bsed on my personal experience and books such as Robert Price's, there is a VERY big difference between "linksland" and "sand dunes."  The former are relatively stable.  The latter are inherently unstable.  If you attempt to build any sort of permanent structure on the latter, you are rolling the dice as to what you are going to have in front of you 2-5 years hence on that "land."  It is not for nothing that on most of the great GBI links the sand dunes are sited between the linksland and the sea, as a natural barrier.  I raised this point many moons ago on this site, and I very much hope that Doak and others at PD have got their geology and meteorology as right as they seem to have got their routing and green complexes.

Rich

[TEPaul]

OOps, well I hope the wind and weather at Pacific Dunes keeps blowing off the sea instead of the other way around or a green like #13 might turn into one helluva large sand trap.

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