[brad_miller]

Am wondering what people think of this issue in the overall experience of a course and it's ranking, Doak scale, 3*'s and the mags. Clearly PB can be played in 3.45-4.15 but only if you are the first group off. There are very few courses that I want to play again and again that take to long. Another reason why golf across the pond is SO good.

[Ed_Baker]

Brad,

I agree that long rounds do take away from the golf experience,but isn't that a management problem? I guess it all comes down to $$$$$.The more footjoys on the turf,the more $$$$,no?

Most of the Doak scale 6's and above that I have had the pleasure to play have been well managed private clubs with average rounds of 4 hours.As most of these rounds are played with a sponsoring member who doesn't want to hold up the whole golf course,everyone moves. But for a variety of reasons including "everyone getting their moneys worth",if people are paying big green fees on the "ranked" public access courses 5 hours is probably the norm.But should this be factored in to the rating? I don't think so.

[RJ_Daley]

I am somewhat puzzled by many of our most ardent contributors that make a very big deal out of having played a great course in under 3 hours.  I am thinking back to our group playing in the Pinehurst area when one evening 5 of the group (after playing Needles earlier in the day) jumped over to Mid and got a $$ deal because the greens were just aerated) and the 5 of them played the course in under 2:45hours as a fivesome.  They were as impressed with themselves playing so fast as they were with the Ross design (an exageration to make the point - as they all seemed to love the course).

I like to make steady progress without long waits on tees and the like when walking also.  But, I don't care to rush to the extent that I am practically jogging to the ball and whacking it willy nilly, without taking in some of the scenery and options of play that may be presented.  I specially don't care to pay upwards of $100 and feel like it is a triumph to play in under 3 - 3.5 hours.  Now, more than 4.5 and I can see where one gets testy.  5 hours seems like way too much.  My regular thursday 4some in men's club play all walk, all play without idiosyncracities in unwarranted putting routines or preshot routines, and we usually do it in 3:50 - 4:10 hrs.  That is a very comfortable pace for enjoyment IMHO.

[Steve Wilson]

In May of 2000 played Dornoch with three fellow Americans, pretty good players.  We started at 3:30, were never held up , and finished at 8:45.  Felt like I had been beat to death.  Two days later I played Dornoch with two fellows from Tain enjoying one of their reciprocal rounds.  One guy had to be at least 70 and neither of them could hit it much over 150.  We finished in 3½ hours.  In the first group I was the "fast" player and in the second probably the "slow" one.  What the hell do we do with all that time?

[Tim_Weiman]

RJ Daley:

You will recall that I played in that fivesome at Mid Pines.

I would still say we had a great time.

Impressed with myself?  

Actually, I was just damn happy.  Most days go by without me getting enough exercise, but not on that day!

And, didn't Alister Mackenzie say something about golf and exercise?

[Matt_Ward]

The #1 reason for slow play is the inability of course management /ownership to take a proactive response. Yes, the players are the violators, but management is the culprit nearly everytime.

The only proactive response you see from club personnel is to GRAB your Visa / Mastercard ASAP and after that you're on your own.

I just came back from Bandon / Pac Dunes and although I love both courses and believe they are absolute must plays for serious golfers, the management at the facility needs to understand that five hours plus is not golf ... that's a sleeeeep-a-thooooon!!!

I played behind two foursomes that had caddies for each player and I believe the players must have criss-crossed each other several times in the play of any hole. They went back and forth so much you could have knitted a sweater in waiting for them to finish. What did course staff do? They politely nodded and went about their business -- whatever that was.

Too many people after paying a large green fee believe, change that, insist upon taking their sweeeeeet time. You can't enjoy the magnificience of the Bandon / Pac Dunes designs when turtles are allowed to continue with the death march thru each hole. It's tremendously frustrating to go thru start / stop process because you can't build / sustain the necessary rhythm in playing such challenging holes.

Management in many places has no real training method in having their people know how to approach slow poke groups and get things moving. A number of elderly gents who become rangers (now the word "player assistant" is used to be PC) believe that just because you hand them a clip board and pencil they can issue commands like a drill sergeant. Five hour golf is now the norm and you can bet it's creeping up with each new added minute per day in America. This sort of nonsense is not tolerated at nearly all of the clubs I ever visited in Ireland and the UK.

Management also does not want to have to take on people with bucks who are present for a number of days and have them understand that slow play has no place period.

I hate to sound so negative, but fighting slow play is not the priority of most management groups -- collecting green fees is. Their priority is to have fancy curtains when you come to the clubhouse, make sure the cart girl is drop dead grogeous and keep all the candy bars and power aid cannisters full.

Slow play in America is not taken seriously by over 90 percent of most clubs -- particularly those with high green fees for the reasons I have just indicated.

Without a detailed and sustained commitment by management groups the problem of slow play will just get worse ... not better.

[brad_miller]

thanks for the start, slow play will effect my view of the overall experience, not the archie if such play is no fault of the course design. Maybe it better fits the Doak scale, as example 8-9 if not for slow play, 7 because of slow play, this might get golf club management to pay closer attention. (talking about the great US daily fee tracks...PB, PD, BD, WS etc.

[brad_miller]

Further, don't some of the rankings account for the ability to walk the course? Why then not speed of play? Would like to hear from some of the rating guys.

[Herb_Flood]

Brad,

With regards to pace of play,golf "across the pond" is SO good due to several factors.

First, most rounds over there are played with caddies. I know from experience that I'm really not sure where the next tee is much less where to hit my drive or which direction the hole plays.Caddies are essential to playing there...imagine how long it would take to play the Old Course, North Berwick or Cruden Bay without one!

I've played to a 0-2 handicap for the past 20 years; and, knowing where I need to hit the ball and how far to hit it is crucial to the enjoyment of the game for me. When the caddie tells you "laddie, take it down the right side with your 200 club...you doon't need a driver here...you must stay away from the pot bunkers," you believe him and attempt to execute the shot he described. That fact alone saves lots of time as well as strokes. Imagine putting at the Old Course without the assistance of local knowledge. How many times would you 3,4 or even 5 putt? Certainly more times than our ego would care to admit.

Second, the presence or lack of yaradage markers effects pace of play. All of the sprinklers at Muirfield are covered with artificial turf to prevent those black disks from showing up on television. (That's what my caddie there told me.) By the time we would arrive to my ball, he may say "you've got 155 to the hole...playing about 135 with the wind...it's firm, the ball will swing hard left when it lands...hit your 125 club and aim it about 25-30 feet right of the hole." If your execute, you stiff it. The consensus on our trip to Scotland was, it is extremely challenging to hit shots close without a caddie. This in turn leads to good scoring.

I can remember being on the 10th at Turnberry and thinking I had about 200 into the green (the short flag sticks really effected me) and the caddie advised me that we were only 145.

Lastly, think about your own course. Think about when you bring a guest to your club for the first time. Imagine not guiding him around. How many shots would he waste; moreover, how much more time would it take in playing those additional shots. Think about how quickly you pull a club at home versus a "track" you've never seen before.In attempting to shoot a good score, it takes time to factor in everything to execute good golf shots...especially in strange territory. Too many times you arrive at some place that was on your list of places you really looked forward to playing, (in the U.S.A.) pay your fee, they give you a scorecard and a key, and you are on you're own. You've just shelled out too much money to play speed golf and hit poor shots.

For my money, "happiness is a long walk with a putter."  

[Peter Galea]

Matt,
What's the answer? Your post was very good but.....offered no solutions. How does management become proactive? What do we do with the Visa card? Charge by the minute?
Penalties for finishing after 4 hours?
I've often said to the DOG (director of golf) that we should advertise a "Fast Play Wednesday"; the response I get is what about the regulars who can't (absolutely can't) finish in under 3.5 hours; do you tell them they can't play that day? (I'm gonna bring it up again this morning at a staff meeting.)
Should we limit the amount of players we allow on the course each day? We did over 300 each day last Fri/Sat/Sun. Do we send 150 of those CUSTOMERS to another course?
I hate slow play. I'm an 11 hdcp. at my course; and smoked the club champ (matchplay) on a  morning when we were first able to play in 2 hours 20 minutes. On Sunday my son and I walked off after 4 holes because of a back up. However, if I had to pay green fees I would have stayed. I need an answer quick, the meeting is at 8am and I want to solve this plague once and forever besides, I hate to procrastinate.

BTW, thanks for the tips re: Meadows Del Mar. We had fun, it was visually stimulating and there was plenty of room to play golf. I only hit one ball in the chapparel and snakes.

[RJ_Daley]

Signage is a good thing when there are unforseen difficulties ahead and you are dealing with players that have not experienced the golf course prior.  I think that the purest-golfer has to sacrifice some things like good yardage markings everywhere.  I also don't like them, but see the need for those clocks posted at key holes saying "you should reach this point within X amount of time.  

I once thought of a system where the playing group would have to push a button when teeing off, and the hole is generously timed depending on what par it is and what playing particulars exist.  When the time is running low for the rated generous allotment, a timed devise would raise a yellow warning flag somewhere behind the green, and when time is out a red flag.  Or a punch time card where like Pete alludes to, a time penalty deposit is given of $2 per hole.  When holing out at each green, the playing group punches a timer to move on to next tee.  If they get overtimed for the rating of any hole, they forfeit the $2 per hole.  If they are through in time they get their deposit back at the end.  Or, put a surcharge of $1-2 on the greenfee, and if they get back to clubhouse by X time after they start, they get a free beverage or free logo ball, etc.

[Pete G.]

RJ, the problem is that one slow group throws a wrench in the works. Or as Slag might say "A Deer in the Works."

[aclayman]

Pete- If your serious about fixing the problem I will reiterate the only effective policy that I've seen in my travels.

It is the combination of psychology and a marshaling program.
When your valued customer hands over the visa the clerk(asst pro) needs to inquire if the payee is AWARE of your "pace of play" policy. When the answer is No, the asst.pro can then explain the three flag system. green-good  yellow-caution  black-rut ro, you must pick up and get back in position. This eleviates the all too often discussion with the marshal which is counter productive. If good ambassadorial relations is important to you then perhaps after a slow group has caught up, then the marshal can go and stroke their sensibilities by acknowledging their miraculous achievment.

I really don't see why a contract can't be signed, as to pace, to absolve your Boss of any future liability similar to cart agreements. Signing is voluntary, and the one guy who squeals is gonna be the guy who thinks he can take his sweet time because he paid to see it all.

As far as taking five hours to play Pebble, WHAT ARE YOU NUTS? Geez, I wanna hurry up and get out of all this f$%%$%# beauty.

[Tim_Weiman]

Matt Ward:

I agree with your comments.  Very few places here in the United States make any effort to move play along.  Making matters worse, we Americans are taking our bad habits across the pond, gradually undermining the pace of play in the UK & Ireland.

Worse than not doing anything positive, some managements actually make things worse.  i remember visiting Whistling Straits and being told by the starter "expect the round to take six hours".  Imagine that!  The course featured marketing literature about Whistling Straits being like Ballybunion and the management was encouraging people to think about playing in six hours.

Pete Gelea:

I'd start with a management commitment to facilitate rounds taking no more than four hours.

Course personnel should be trained to advise customers right from the start of the priority of maintaining pace of play.

Have the person in the pro shop set the tone, politely but clearly.  Have the starter reinforce the message on the first tee.  Encourage rangers to quickly address groups which don't seem to get the message.
Have the ranger pinpoint and communicate what the problem may be, e.g., not being ready to play one's shot.

As for further steps, I'd be all for financial incentives if a program of education and persausion doesn't work.  Perhaps charging a refundable surcharge, payable to anyone who finishes under the time limit (maybe $100 dollars per group).

Finally, searching for lost bals doesn't help.  Maintaining rough in a manner where a ball can be easliy located makes sense.

[ForkaB]

Slow play has been one of my main bugbears since the late 70's when I saw the alternative.  The fact is, however, that IF you are running a course with profit maximization in mind, a 4 1/2 - 5 hour round is optimal for you, as an owner, given a realistic distribution of player capabilities and preferences for speed of play.

I used to think differently about this issue, assuming that the old Time, Rate and Distance problems of school applied simply to golf--i.e. that the faster you got people to play, the more cumulative distance (=revenue) would accrue to the course over a fixed period of time.  This is not true, however, for reasons related to what Pete says--the influence of the laggards.  I don't remember the math, but it relates to Queuing theory, and is the same phenomenon which causes 20-mile stretches of highway to have traffic jams due to one stalled car at the side of the road, or military drill instructors to teach (sic) new recruits to learn to march at a uniform rate of speed.

PART

[ForkaB]

...after having been rudely interrupted by a random keystroke, let me continue....

...PART of the problem can be fixed, with more aggressive marhsalling, various carrots and sticks as Tim and others refer to, etc., but as long as most golf courses are profit-making entitities AND most customers feel that a 4 1/2-5 hour round is "about right," slow play will be endemic.

Where you don't have slow play is at private clubs that can police both its members and the behavior of its guests, and that do not need additional revenue.   This is true both in the UK and in the US.  Trust me, the "name" private and semi-private clubs in the UK have far more money than they know how to spend.  The last thing on their agenda is how to squeeze a few more pounds out of their golf courses.

I'm off to buy that folding lawn chair for my trip to Bandon, but finally.........

Brad

To get to your VERY inriguing point.

YES, we should "rate" courses on speed of play.  IN fact, I think that this whole "rating" non-debate could be resolved if we compiled an "Enjoyability Index" for every course.  This index would include:  architecture, conditioning, sense of history, speed of play, humanity of the mmebers and staff, walkability, physical beauty and quirk.

Now, if I knew GCA members opinions for most courses of these (and probably other important characteristics I have forgotten), that would be SOME golf guide!

Cheers

Rich

[THuckaby2]

Rich - shhhh - don't tell anyone - but your Enjoyablity Index is how I "rate" basically any course.  I'd also say that anyone who claims this doesn't factor into their ratings is fooling themselves.

But this is just between you and me.

TH

[BarnyF]

If I ever play PB,BD,PD or WS I pray that I am not behind some golfnut/tourist who slows down play by taking pictures.  I propose a ban of all battery operated devices from golf courses.  This would include carts, phones, cameras and gps devices.  I can tolerate beepers for expectant fathers and doctors on call only.  I cannot think of one electrical device that is of benefit during a round of golf.  Even the great golf mind/electrician Tommy N cannot dispute the harm electricity has brought to our great game.  

[DJ]

I agree that management should take a more proactive approach towards pace of play, but ultimately the cause of all this heartburn rests solely on one main issue: players' egos (IMHO)

I've just returned from a week in Pinehurst and had a fantastic time.  Pace of play was an issue several times, however (most notably on #8).

Our final round of the week was played on Pine Needles, and it may have been the most wonderful golf experience of my life.  I shot a fairly respectable score of 81, my playing partner shot a 122(!), and a single who joined us scored somewhere in the mid-90's.  Yet, despite these fairly high scores, we finished in a very relaxing 3.5 hours.  Why?  2 reasons:  a) we played from the proper tees; b) CONTINUOUS putting.

I will probably get an earful from this board, but it's my humble opinion that pace of play problems can be significantly slashed if golfers would follow these two extremely EASY guidelines.

On Pinehurst #8, we were unfortunate enough to get behind a 12 man outing.  ALL of the players were hitting off the blue tees (which measure over 6700 yards) and I'm not sure any of the players were under a 15 handicap (and I'm quite sure many of the players were MUCH higher than 15).  Now call me crazy, but shouldn't you have a relatively low index to be playing a 6700+ course?  

OK, now picture this:  You've arrived at your drive in the middle of the fairway, you've pulled the proper iron, and you wait for the green to clear.  The foursome ahead of you have just arrived at the putting surface.  First, they have a conference to see who is away.  Player #1 begins the plum-bobbing and all other ridiculous acts.  His 30-footer comes to rest 18 inches short.  Marks the ball.  Player #2 begins the "Tiger" thing where he cups his hands around his face to "focus" in on the line. He putts the ball a foot past the hole.  Marks the ball.  And on, and on, and on.  Multiply this scene by 18 and you've just experienced my round on Pinehurst #8.

Obviously, everyone wants to have a good time and score as well as possible, but this ego thing (Choosing tees WAY out of their league, and "playing pro" on the putting greens) eats up a lot of clock over the course of 18 holes.  Is it really that painful to say you're a 15 handicap and that you'll play the whites today?  Or just pick a line, hit your putt, and (if you're not standing in anyone's line) just finish out the hole?  Am I being an elitist snob?

One final thought:  I'm sure others have had very different experience than me, but I've noticed that EVERY single time I've been held up by extreme slow play, it's invariably a group of guys.  Women get a terrible rap on the golf course, but you know what?  The always play the proper tees, they don't go thru any convoluted putting rituals, and if a hole is really getting out of hand they're often quick to just pocket the ball.  Of course, this is the very reason why my two simple suggestions will never be implemented.  You can't regulate the male ego  

Now, if I can just improve the pace of play of my posting.......  

[ForkaB]

Barny

When we play do I need to remove the pacemaker? If I do so, can I bring along the portable defibrillator?  If not, can I please bring along the cell phone, just to call 911?  If not can I bring along an old AA battery to make a spark to send a smoke signal to the nearest hospital?  Can I bring my dog-eared copies of the life and times of Tesla, and the sayings of Chairman Naccarato?  Just wondering.......

[THuckaby2]

1. Far more males play the game than females.  Thus statistically your chances of playing behind glacial males are far greater than molasses females.

2. My American friend and I were passed (and gladly so) by an octagenarian female threesome in Scotland once.  Yes, females can go fast.

All this being said, I'm still gonna toe the party line and say the proportion of slow females outweighs the proportion of slow males.  Yes, the ladies do play their correct tee, but damn can they take their time moseying along to each of their 145 shots, and they seem to actually have meaningful conversations as they play.

I need to play with and behind more skilled females.

And you think you are likely to be crucified?  God help me if Lisa Luigs Morrisset ever reads this.

As for solving slow play, your two suggestions are great, but the likelihood of people adapting them, well... I'm not holding my breath.

TH

[BarnyF]

Rich,

You hit on a good point...the advances in modern medicine can be blamed for the increase of slow play.  I remember as a kid grumpy old men who complained about everything eventually either died or blew out a hip or knee.  Now these guys live forever thanks to modern medicine.  I bet in the last 25 years the number of golfers in their 70's has increased by at least a factor of 10.  I think the elderly need to pass the same test to play the course a junior golfer must first pass.  The problem with this is if the pro administers the test every old fart will pass everytime because if they stay in the clubhouse the pro will have to listen to them bitch until they finally gain the strength to take another 15 minute piss.  I think once your handicap is more than half your age a manditory retirement plan should put in effect with limited morning coffee privilages.

[Matt_Ward]

Rich: Loved the idea about having an "enjoyability" assessment. I will be passing that on to Ron Whitten and hope other GD panelists will do the same. I agree completely that no course can be worthwile to rate if you must slog through five plus hours consistently.

As far as some suggested recommendations for change here goes a few ...

1). Insist on proper tees being played. DO NOT believe any handicap cards. If a player insist on playing from the back tees go to the practice area and watch him / her hit balls. If the player after adequately being warmed-up is still hitting ground balls or slices out to Kansas they can only play from the front tees. NO EXCEPTIONS. Blue tee syyndrome is at epidemic levels at the resort courses for those players who will only be playing once or twice at that course.
I carry a one to two handicap and I am tired about people dressed up like Tiger who play like a shmuck.

2). Dump the refreshment carts that provide another reason for Joe average golfer to stuff their face with hot dogs, popcorn, snicker bars, beer, et al causing more delay. Courses should provide a convenient halfway house similar to the one at Pac Dunes and that's it. The courses will not suffer irreparable financial harm.

3). Keep tee times reasonably spaced. Some courses have terrain where 8-9 minute intervals is possible -- others are more reasonably based on 12 minute time frames.

4). Players should be given punch cards which are stamped with the exact time they leave the first tee. At specific points on the course the players / group would be asked to produce the card. The key here is constant monitoring by course personnel. And, it is absolutely critical for staff personnel (i.e. rangers, player assisant , ombudsmen, whatever they are now called!) to politely approach people and get things moving. Warning a group first is important but stepped up action should be specified to all players BEFORE they tee off to avoid anyone thinking that a specific person is instituting an action that was not outlined prior to the payment of any fees.

Keep in mind everyone that at well heeled resorts the management does not want to step on any millionaires toes. When I see DSonal Trump type people crawl along and nothing is done but the same staff person will harrass juniors and women something is terribly amiss.

Most clubs and management need a detailed action plan that accentuates process and takes out discriminatory discretion. This info should be sent to all resort guests or provided before play. Slow play should be looked upon with ZERO TOLERANCE!

Finally, players will not usually mind if they must wait at the clubhouse before teeing off. But when they hit the course it's time to get with the program and keep moving.

I also think as suggested by a few that speed of play result in financial rebates for future rounds or so other type of trinket / gift. We need to highlight that golf is about playing the game and not standing on tees like wooded indians outside of a barber shop!!!

[ForkaB]

Matt

Your ideas are thoughtful, useful in theory, but impractical.  In today's climate, nobody paying a G or two for a round at Pebble Beach (including the room, the food, the travel and the visit into Carmel by the partner while they're playing golf) will take too kindly to some asthmatic pensioner in a golf cart telling them to move on or he'll fine them a fin or two.

However, I'm thinking of Tennis.  There, at a club or a public court you sign up and play forby the hour.  If it's deuce at 8-8 in the third set and your time is up, you get off the court.

How about this!

Golf carts that are time programmed to shut down and activate some sort of "Denver Boot" around the clubs after 4 hours.  If you're on the 15th tee, tough shit.  A Humvee or something similar will come out to bring you and your clubs back to the clubhouse.  Or, if you are using caddies, sign them up with the Teamsters, and make it clear that hours (or fractions thereof) past 4 required a $500/bag payment on the spot, or no more play.

Thanks for the kind thoughts on the "enjoyability index (EI)"  Just to make it clear to you and Ron Whitten, I am NOT advocating this as an additional "category" in the GD (or any other) rankings.  Rather I am advocating that the EI BE the "ranking" and that the GD, or Golf, or GW "top whatever" ranking be just one of the 5-10 components of the index--probably under the category of "architecture".

Barny

Your observation vis a vis the proliferation of "geezers" is spot on and will only be exacerbated unless "W" takes a stronger stand on stem cell research.  However, as Steve W notes above, the geezers I know and play with can and do play much faster than virtually any flat-bellied scratch player I have ever played with, and there have been many.......

[Jim Thompson]

A couple of weeks ago, a friend relayed this story. He was playing with his regular foursome at his home muni course and just as the group ahead left the par three 8th green, a single (who none of them had ever seen before) behind them came up and said, "You guys took way too long on the last hole, I'm playing through".  One of the guys in the foursome looked at him, saying, "yeah, we were waiting on the group ahead", to which the single glaringly looked at them and said, "don't any of you a-holes talk back to me" and went ahead and teed up his ball and hit onto the green. The group was so shocked that they just stood there speechless and let him play through.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()