Speed of play

[aclayman]

In an attempt to get this thread into acceptable perameters:

Has anyone else noticed how on some of the newer Fazio courses the greens are predominatly either featureless or punchbowl, which is probably designed to help speed play?

[ForkaB]

One of my earliest memories of golf in Scotladn (at Turnberry)is playing the last 3-4 holes as a single, being held up by the group in front but also aware of a group waiting behind me, getting to the 17th tee and seeing the group behind running after me and then past me, pulling their trolleys with an under-the-breath comment of "singles have no standing on the course."  I nodded and let them through.  There was nobody behind them.  It added 5-10 minutes to my game, but much more to my understanding of the various interpreetations of what sort of a game golf really is.....

[Ken_Cotner]

Tom H,

Sounds like we have had different experiences.  I have no hard data, only anecdotal evidence, but the women I have seen play at my course are generally faster than the men.  They continuously putt and don't take 2 minutes to evaluate a pitch or chip shot.

My theory:  they don't watch golf on television.

KC, debating whether to play in the club championship this weekend for the first time in years.  I really don't look forward to 4.5+ hour rounds.  And it's match play!

[THuckaby2]

I am greatly overgeneralizing, Ken.  And perhaps it has to do with quality of golf courses / clubs... But good God has my experience found far more slow women than fast... Maybe it's a California thing.

But like I say, I need to play with or behind more skilled females.  I hardly ever have...

TH

[aclayman]

Rich- I have always know that singles have "no rights" but I have never seen anyone actually deny one thru.

Sometimes I really don't mind all the waiting...
But, you have to do a few tricks,so that it doesn't eat at your soul. The first of which is DON'T stand over your ball,with club in hand waiting-watching-bitching
about plumbbobing. Leave the club in the bag and walk around,tell a joke,look for balls.
Whatever just don't get into preball before the group has put the flag in.

[Lou_Duran]

Rich:

I am intrigued. From your experience with the running, muttering Scots, what new understanding do you have about the the type of game that golf is?  My wife and I had a near identical experience at an old muni in
Toronto, though the old "gentlemen" were more vociferous about what they thought of tourists, specially those hailing from the U.S. (the only negative experience I have ever had in my many interactions with Canadians- lovely people in a beautiful country).

As with the Israeli/Palestinian problem, I don't think that there is solution to the speed of play issue.  The often quoted four hour goal is, in my opinion, not aggressive enough.  I've have seen eightsomes and tensomes at Ohio State's Scarlet course (former golf team members and Coach Brown's buddies) play in much less than four hours.  We have fivesomes at my current club that play polo (cart) golf and  most singles could not keep up with them.

I don't think that it is the number of players, gender, or profficiency that determines the speed of play.  It is more the disposition of the player, knowledge, and etiquette.  If anyone figures out how to change the conciousness of these folks so they speed up somewhat, maybe we can then attack the problems of repairing ball marks on the greens, raking sand traps, fixing divots, and keeping carts off sensitive areas.  Sadly, I doubt that I will live to see that day.    

[Tim_Weiman]

Rich Goodale:

Regarding your "Denver boot" idea, I not sure I've ever laughed harder over any post at GCA.

I'm also not sure I've heard of a more brilliant idea to combat slow play.

Wouldn't it be great to see some resort have the guts to try such a thing?

[DJ]

TH:

As I mentioned in my previous post, I'm sure many have had different experiences, and certainly you have been unlucky in regards to women golfers.  Let me give you some examples from my past week in Pinehurst:

First round of the week was on #4:  My playing partner and I were advised in the pro shop that we had been paired with another twosome.  They turned out to be two Japanese women (mother and daughter) and my first reaction was "Oh jeez".  Bottom line -not only were they pretty golf golfers (the daughter played the whites with me), I couldn't keep up with them!  As an added bonus they were great company, too.

Pinehurst #2: Paired with husband and wife from Tucson, AZ.  The wife was so good I felt it unfair that she was playing the Red tees.  Late in the round she was having a terrible time with the front bunker on 17.  At one point she picked the ball up from the fringe and pocketed it.  I asked her what the problem was.  She said, "I've doubled par.  That's the limit."  Perhaps someone can entertain us with a story about the last time they saw a man pick up the ball lying five!

Pinehurst #3:  Paired with a single.  He was a pretty good golfer.  Not great, but pretty good.  Cursed every third word, gouged the turf with frustration after every bad shot, and threw his pitching wedge across the green into a bunker on 15 after he chunked his chip.  A lousy time was had by all.

Just one man's opinion, Tom - anytime you're paired with someone else it's a crap shoot, I know -- but I'm beginning to think that women make much better company.

[THuckaby2]

OK, I knew I had gone down a very politically incorrect road here, so it's 4th and 25 and the punt team has been sent in.

I'm never gonna argue that women aren't better company, btw!

TH

[JohnV]

Pete, a few suggestions.

When a group calls to book a time, tell them they must be at the course and checked in at least 15 minutes before their tee time or they will only be allowed out on a space available basis.

Then make sure that they are at the tee 5 minutes before they are due to tee off.

Have a starter there to make sure and to let them know the pace of play that is expected.  Also do this in the shop when they pay their green fees.  Also have the starter ask them to try to play the appropriate tees.

Make sure that groups tee of at their appointed time, not early or late.  Early puts them too close to the group in front and causes them to feel like they are waiting and late means the group behind is backed up.

Encourage ready golf, continuous putting and all the other good suggestions people have made here.  Get marshals out there and give them the power to do their job.  Don't just send them out to drive around and look for lost balls.

Try to get everyone paired up in groups of four or at least 3.  Sending singles and twos out in the middle of the day seems to jam things up more than help.

I think you should reward any group that finishes in under 3:45 with a beer/soda.  Reward any other group that is "in position" on the last tee with 50% off a beer or soda.  After all, if the group in front is taking 4:30, I can't take much less than 4:25 and it isn't my fault.

Keep track of the groups that don't keep up/meet your time par and who is in them.  If they do it too frequently, deal with them just like you would deal with someone who gave you a bad check.  After all, they are costing you money because other people will get pissed and not come back.

As an example of some of this, last Sunday the first group at Ghost Creek (our public course) teed off 15 minutes late because a couple of our members were dinking around and not ready to play.  Then they took 4:50 to play because nobody was willing to get them moving.  We teed off 1 hour after them, started 7 minutes late and took 5 hours total because of it.  Everyone who played on Sunday left with a bad taste because the course didn't enforce a pace of play policy.  Today, my wife, another member, myself and a player we didn't know teed off at 11:10 and finished in 3:45 because the groups in front kept moving.  Much better.

[Matt_Ward]

Slow play is not the urgent issue at the pricey upscale courses. The private clubs do a better job because they can enforce REAL sanctions (i.e. no morning tee times, even possible suspensions).

Does anyone believe that pricey upscale courses will really lower the boom on slow play against groups of players who have just plunked down mega bucks to play the course. I don't think so. This is particuarly so if these well heeled players bring others like themselves to spend big time dollars when they are at that type of facility.

I get a real chuckle when people say include more signage. The sign mentality has brought us such winners that say 55 is the speed limit and people should not smoke in dry areas. Yeah ... right!

Most courses have no consistent plan in dealing with slow play because they don't take the time to address one and follow-up on it each and everyday. It's just a talking point or a meaningless sign point.

I truly hope the management at Bandon Dunes pays attention because failure to be proactive will result in tortoise play becoming the norm there as well. That would be a major disapppointment.

I agree that clubs before taking your $$ should carefully explain what's expected and enforce the rules across the board. Knowing how to approach people is key. Sadly, management at many clubs fails to orient its staff on proper ways to intercede and how to get your point across without things becoming confrontational.

[Dan King]

I think it is silly to expect all golfers to play at the exact same pace.  There are going to be golfers that play best at 3 hour pace and others that prefer a round take 5 hours. The one and only way they can get along on the same course is if the slower golfer step aside and let the faster group play through. For some reason this works in Scotland but not in America.

The other answer is ideas like Pete’s Fast Play Wednesdays.  I’m there when this starts.  Keep us informed Pete.  I think it’s a great idea. This could influence golfers at other times as they learn ways to pick up the pace and how much fun it is to play at a brisk pace.

I’ve been accused around here of being a golf Luddite on this group. Generally I don’t think much of technologies advances on the golf course, but here might be a potential invention that could make a big difference on speed of play on the golf course:

The above drawing is assumed to be the invention of Dean Kamen called Ginger or IT.  Besides bringing polo to the masses, it could also be used on golf courses as a compromise between walking and riding in a two-person buggy.
How IT might work: What we do know about IT

Dan King
dking@danking.org

quote:Ginger: You're not too good at this golf thing, are you, Stan?
Stanley: You're f&#@ing up my chi.
--Swordfish

[BillV]

DJ

The hand cupping over the eyes is the brain child of one Craig Farnsworth, an eye guy in Denver (Very very interesting guy with an incredible sthick.  Yet another thing Tiger gets credit for which he didn't invent i.e. wedge tricks etc.

More importantly, I too LOVE playing with women.  The best deal for me at a resort is to get paired with 2 other women to play with my wife and me.  They know the rules, play fast, generally look and smell good (Sexist, but true)and don't try to play the back tees with me where they have no business being.

To answer the early question, unless the course plays as death march-like as pebble, I think I have to be careful not to over appreciate courses where pace of play is not an issue.  

[THuckaby2]

All right, I'm back on my politically incorrect anti-females on golf courses kick.  Yesterday I played in the NCGA Net Am qualifier at my home course, Santa Teresa GC, San Jose, CA.  Our first group went off at 10:00am.  We were preceeded by from what I could tell, at least 12 groups of women, playing some sort of tournament.  Given you can see a lot of the course as you drive in, I saw all these women and was naturally curious... so I found their first group... which was at that point at least 2 holes behind the group in front of it...

Let's cut to the chase here.  My round took 6 hours and 40 minutes to complete.  Now, this course does tend to go slow... and it was a tournament so that tends to take longer...

But the women ahead caused the whole thing, absolutely no question about it.  Now yes, women smell great, and they are lovely company (I know, I was in the first group and got to chat with many of them as we waited on tees sometimes 4 groups deep)... but god dammit, I am prepared to say once again they go glacially slow, in general.  This was ridiculous.  The marshalls told us they had three different two hole gaps in their groups....

Sorry guys.  And apologies to those women who can go fast.  But this was sad.

TH

[BarnyF]

I would rather play behind the AARP Womens Senior Open than play in a Net Am.  Does anybody really care who is the biggest sandbagger in the whole state?  Whats with the term net am anyway...are there any net pro tournys?  A good women is hard to find...A sandbagger is hard to get rid of.

[THuckaby2]

Barny - "net am" was just my abbreviation for Net Amateur, the full title of the tournament.  Our NCGA established this because the tournament schedule is EXTREMELY weighted toward the scratch competitive players... giving those of lesser ability really no region-wide tournaments.  It's an admirable thought, but you're right - it should truly be called the Sandbagger Open.  I've played in the 0-9.9 index flight three times and gee, guess which handicaps win the thing???  You've never seen so many 9s and 10s have the "round of their lives" with low 70's gross scores.

Thus I always go into this, and ANY net event, with a very fatalistic attitude as I am generally giving the field shots.  I have no expectations of anything other than a competitive round played under strict conditions, with rules officials on site, etc.  For me that is the "fun" involved.

TH

[ForkaB]

I think Barny has stumbled onto a great idea-the "Net Pro" concept.  Rather than trying to lengthen and otherwise tinker with our courses, let's recalibrate the handicaps of ALL players back to the real scratch player, Tiger, and play ALL tournaments at "net."

Tiger, who is +10 right now, would become scratch.  Mickelson would play off 1, Montgomerie at 2, Emanuelle Cannonica (the lowest scoring PGA tour player) at 5.  David Eger and the rest of the Walker Cup players would be 5-7. Formerly "scratch" players like Matt Ward 10.  Mark Fine 13.  A good solid player like Dan King 18.  You get the idea.  A realistic assesment of our real potential vs. the "back marker."

Let's see how cocky Tiger is playing the back nine at Augusta when he knows that Tom Watson, who he's tied with and paired with is going to get a shot on 15.  Or even Jamie Slonis who is going to get a shot every other hole or so!

Don't know why nobody has thought of this before.

Rich

PS--Tom, did you win?

[THuckaby2]

Yeah - why the hell shouldn't they play net, we always have to!

And Rich, come on, "win" is such a relative term...

Let's just say that after a round that included a skulled wedge from 30 yards with nothing in the way into an unplayable lie; two putts missed of a combined length shorter than my arm; a ball 2 inches ob... I "lost".

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Rich:

Love the "net" idea ... send it to Finchem and the boys in Ponte Vedra. Could well be the "tiger proofing" idea that many are searching for.

Tom:

Ask yourself what the marshalls were doing during your "six hour plus experience." Either looking for balls, keeping an eye on the teen age bikini clad girl at the pool or prohibited by the club from really doing anything meaningful.

Slow play lies at the door of management ... it's that simple and clear in my mind. They have the keys to the course.

Dan:

You say it is as simple as letting players play through. Again, management can take the lead here. The American golf psyche has never embraced the "playing thru" concept. For macho guys it's a sign of weakness. I do wave players through when my pace has impacted the people behind me.

Minus course layouts the necessitate long walks or cart rides there is no reason why golf cannot be played in a maximum of 4 1/2 hours tops.

[THuckaby2]

Matt:  the marshalls could do nothing about a "competitive" round where the participants hit the ball 40 yards, each marched to that, hit it 40 yards again, march, watch, march, watch, march, watch.... mark every putt...

I'm not trying to be a jerk here but it was comical I witnessed this the day after this thread first appeared.  Concrete proof of one's rantings seldom comes this quickly.

It was brutal.  The marshalls in this case did they best they could.  I fault management for putting two tournaments of this nature back to back.

TH

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I hear you loud and clear. You're right -- look at management!

Still, management probably has an idea on the talent (lack thereof) of the players involved.

Next time put the tees immediately near the putting surfaces and each of the players will think they are scoring in the same league with Karrie, Annika and Se Ri!!!

Course management should prepare and set the course to reflect what is possible. I grant you that if you have players who simply hit ground ball after ground ball or spray as far as the earth will permit it becomes more difficult. Once management allows the inmates to run the asylum you have major problems. I am a firm advocate that management should chicken wire much of the teeing areas to prevent players from playing tee boxes beyond their ability.

I'll say it again most management operates only quickly when they take your Visa / Mastercard. In that area they are jackrabbits!

Bethpage Black (NY) has the same problem. I can remember waiting so long to tee off and then thinking the round would be OK. Wrong.

The 2nd tee usually had 3-4 groups waiting. It got so bad that several players would mosy to the adjoining 17th of the Green Course and begin practicing short putts, sand shots and even short irons to the green. This was all going on even as players playing the hole correctly were approaching. A clear scene from "Caddyshack."

On other holes I actually thought they should put out copies of the Sunday NY Times and you could read sections while you waited. All in all, the most informed people would be at Bethpage!!!

Tom, I believe slow play is not only related to women but the worse offenders are the middle-aged men who think that if they dress like Tiger they'll play like him. They usually insist on some "action" while they play and literally every shot becomes a major study that would make engineering decisions at NASA seem fast.

Slow play is a talking point at most courses ... nothing more. Until players literally demand action nothing will be done.

Remember the outrage, it continues rightfully today, about the right to walk while playing. Very, very, few courses have a clue on how to be proactive in this area. Many clubs have more people in club shirts all riding in carts with headsets and I wonder they must be listening to the radio because they have no real role in assisting players.

[Eric Pevoto]

This thread has gotten away from the original question, but pace of play management is an issue near and dear to my heart.

Here's an answer for the slow players who paid top-dollar green fees at the upscale daily-fee:  

"Everybody behind you paid top-dollar too and you're seriously cramping their round."

Slow-play is simply a matter of being self-centered and discourteous.  If this can be explained to the offenders in a friendly but firm manner they might get the point.

From a management perspective, I think the key is to have sound policy based on a USGA time par, build a staff committed to the policy, and then clearly and frequently explain (not just with signs   but face to face) and enforce the policy as many times as possible/needed.  

Dangling carrots (free drinks, raffles)works pretty well in our case.  More than 80% of our rounds finish in less than 4 1/2.

Of course, it helps to have a walkable layout with tees a short walk from greens.