[Sean Berry]

I played Piping again yesterday, and it occurred to me during my round that it very well may possess the finest specimen MacDonald/Raynor holes available. It's Redan, Road, Alps, Short,Biarritz holes are probably the finest I have seen. If not for the absence of an Eden hole, and to a lesser degree, a Cape hole, I would submit that this course would be an absolutely perfect blueprint for assessing the famous combo's work.

This course does not get nearly enough credit.

[Ran Morrissett]

Sean,

A very interesting post.

On the one hand, Piping Rock is one of my great favorites too. When you combine the name holes that you mentioned with holes like the spectacular 6th, The Knoll 13th and 14th holes, you have a very solid courses overall with the occasional stunner. And unlike The Creek, there are no weak patches.
Plus, Spear can make the course a terror when he has the course/greens running super fast.

On the other hand, you can't say that is a pure Macdonald/Raynor course. Among other things, the short Redan bunker is missing, the 5th hole has non-original greenside bunkering (where Spear did a fantastic job), the 15th green was changed and the Short Hole was changed/lengthened.

While there may be "purer" courses for the Raynor/Macdonald fan to study, only NGLA, Fishers, and Yale are more of a joy to play, at least in my book.

Cheers,

[TEPaul]

I grew up at Piping Rock and to my knowledge Piping is basically Raynor's first real solo design (1913). Macdonald is given attribution (with Raynor) but the fact, as I understand it, is C.B got extremely pissed at Piping for not allowing him to utilize the ground that was the polo field (the present absolutely enormous practice field).

C.B was a tough and intransigent man, I'm told, but the high style, world class polo interests on Long Island at that time, and very much including Piping Rock Polo, was tougher and more intransigent than C.B. He lost the battle for those polo fields for golf (which he insisted on) and quit the project at that point which was befoe the golf course was constructed.

Piping Rock is a wonderful golf course and has been lenghtened in the last twenty five years to make it a better test for the bigger hitters of today, but it's a bit more formal and traditional, dare I say, normal golf course than the team of MacDonald/Raynor's best!

Piping has a great Redan and one of the few that's green site seems actually higher than the tee which I feel makes for a really good redan (in the etymological sense of a fortress). As much as I love Piping's Redan, certainly in the top 3-4 in the world, it still is overshadowed by NGLA's #4. Piping has a great Biarritz though.

Piping's "Road Hole" is somewhat of a mutt! It was originally designed as about a 350yd par four and the green design is about suited for that (maybe add 40 yds max for today's big hitters), but it isn't the proper proportion or the ideal orientation for the tee length they added to it.

Piping Rock is a great golf course and the "usual suspect" MacD/Raynor holes there are good ones. #13 is a straight away short par 4 that due to its green and green site is in a class of its own, but the "short" is also a total mutt and really should no longer be identified as a MacD/Raynor "short". #16 is a good strategic hole tee to green and #18 is fun as a finisher to try to figure out exactly how to make birdie, if you need it!

But for sheer architectural brilliance and architectural guts Piping never touched NGLA and it never will!

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

WELL.......... I'M WAITING  

[TEPaul]

Pat:

You won't have to wait long. I forgot to tell you when I saw you that I spoke to the guy in the end of July who will host us but he was just about on his way to Africa for one month.

I'm not going to be much available in September but looks like around the middle of October would be a good time--and a very nice time to play at Piping--you might even get to wear your Tam with the little fuzzy ball on top!

[Will E]

I agree with Mr.Paul on most of what he has written regarding Piping.
I have played this course over 120 times. yes 120.
True, the horse track and the Polo Fields altered the original plans CB had for the property. (hey Dave W. Polo Fields) I'm not sure that it could have turned out better even if CB could do whatever he pleased with the property. The view from the club overlooking the polo fields (the best practice facility I've seen) and the front nine is breathtaking. The banks of the track fit nicely into the design of #7 and #8. True it may be missing some of the classic holes found at NGLA. For a "true test of golf" Piping is the best course on the island. The course is straight forward, and while I know a lot of you reading this don't consider this a factor; PRC is very fair. The only blind shot is on #12 to a punchbowl green. The 14th still ranks as one of the best par fours I have played and is my favorite on the course. Rich Spear (course super and czar of Piping) is an example of how important it is to have someone with knowledge and passion involved in such a gem as this. Rich is constantly making improvements and trying to keep this course up to date. (see new tees on 8 and 15)
I never saw the course before the Dye restoration in the 80's. Today it is one of the best conditioned courses in the country. In 1995 I played with a good friend who had shot 67 on Sunday of the US Open at SH and he said (and still thinks) the Piping is a better course than SH. I'm not sure I agree with that, but I still consider PRC to be one of my all time favorites.

[SPDB]

I think the Road hole is spectacular, and as Ran said in the review "the most faithful to the original."

Another aspect of PRC that i find intriguing is the contour of the fairways. The shapes that they make either generally or whether around fairway bunkering is pretty dazzling. Good examples are 1, 6, 10, 14, 16, 18 - a stunner.

I agree that it is regrettable that the short is no longer short, but those flat bunkers in front are pretty menacing. Was the green enlarged as well, because it is a fairly large green for a short, I thought.

[SPDB]

Shooter -
Agree about the 14th. The fairway bunkering on that hole is about the finest example of bunkering I have ever witnessed. from the back tees, the far bunker doesn't really come into play, but visually it is at once breathtaking and terrifying.

About the 12th hole being blind, that shouldn't be a detraction, rather it is generally a requirement (i believe) of any Alps hole.

Ran, i am also in accord with you on the 13th green complex. The pin was all the way back on Wed. and I very nearly dunked my sand wedge as it glanced off the bottom of the flagstick.

[TEPaul]

What is the name of #13? George Bahto told me in an email about two years ago but I forgot now. Is that the "Leven"? Very cool green site and green and of course that back shelf with what's behind it (or what's not behind it) will make you pucker even with an extremely short shot in!

Shooter, maybe you are much, much taller  than I am (like maybe your about 35ft tall) but I always felt that #15's green was pretty darn blind--and that would explain why it's the "bell" hole. The blindness on a few holes at Piping is very cool too and is a feature that should be brought back into golf immediately and much more! Let the poor babies stuggle with their aim and distance control and see if they can manage to trust themselves!

I haven't played at Piping in a lot of years now (grew up there though) but I remember not really liking the tee length they added to #4 or #8. You used to walk back to #4 tee from #3 green in the old days and now you have to walk 50-60yds farther back. Very much the same with #8 too and I thought that back tee looked sort of dumb out in the polo fields when I first saw it! The old archies talked about designing for elasticity by designing tees as a forward walk from the previous green so you could extend back someday but I don't think they had that in mind on #4 & #8, at least that's not the way they routed or set the original tees.

My recollection of #8 green was that it was a very good "Road Hole" green interpretation! Good "Road Hole" bunker and nice interpretation of the "road" with a right bunker but that the green was designed for the length of hole that was originally done. But it's size is not that good for a long par 4.

I don't know the "Road Hole" itself but I think a "Road Hole" interpretation like #7 NGLA or even #2 Maidstone are better because they are bigger. Actually the green at NGLA #7 is not just bigger, it's much better! Actually the fact that NGLA's #7 (and Maidstone's #2) are par 5s shouldn't matter since the design incorporates risk/reward strategies of both a long approach in two and also a short third shot really well!

But Piping's a great golf course and probably is now of championship caliber with it's added length. It's really good but I don't think it quite reaches Shinnecock for championship calibre.

[ForkaB]

Tom

Haven't played PR or NGLA, but the "real" Road Hole green is tiny, only 3-4000 square feet of effective green (if you take away the large "false front" and the back 1/2 of the green, which was probably in play when the course was reversed, but is largely irrelevant today).

[TEPaul]

Rich:

That's interesting what you say! The real "Road Hole" has 3,000-4,000sf of effective green space although the back 1/2 and the large "false front" are unusable. By unusable you probably mean unpinnable. But that other green space must have some use.

I don't know for sure but my distant recollection would lead me to believe that the 8th green Piping Rock couldn't be much more than 3500sf. total!

So the question would be what's the difference of about 10,000sf of total green space with only about 3,000-4000sf of it pinnable and a green that only has 3500sf of total green space?

I guess you would have to analyze what the difference is if a golfer missed the app. 3500sf of effective (pinnable or usable) green space as opposed to the 3500sf TOTAL green.

[SPDB]

I know that #3 at Camargo is a Leven, and it requires much the same that #13, but the green complex is not a skyline-type.

16 also requires a blind shot.

[Will E]

TE-
On #15 it is possible to see where the pin is  as you hit your shot to the green, the same could be said in regards to the approach to the 16th.
#12 is a totally blind; complete guess over the mound, I should have been clearer.
Your points regarding new tees on 4,8,10,15 (a new one on 16) are examples of why this may not be a true Specimen Course, it does take away from the routing, but there is no other choice as I see it. Rich has also added bunkering too, especially on #2.
That being said, what is the "purest" McDonald course? Yale, CGC, NGLA?

[SPDB]

Tom - a couple observation on the road at PRC.
1. I think the newer tee (out in the field), sets the shot angles as they appear on the original, which I think is an interesting sensation. I have always thought that the Road Hole at TOC is the most interestingly shaped hole. The green continues the diagonal direction of the fairway.

2. i think that the green is a bit bigger than you posit, there is considerable area left of the bunker.

3. The strategy also is strikingly similar to the TOC road. The new tee forces you to take a dangerous line close to the tree, in order to set yourself up with the shorter and easier approach to the hole. Play safe left and you will have 200 in.

[ForkaB]

Tom

You could put a pin on the front of the Road Hole green, but it would trivialize the hole, so it is never put there in any serious competition (you might find it there, however, when you make your once in a life-time trip to St. Andrews--check it out before you play!).  You could also put a pin in the back 1/2, but that would require you to hit a long iron directly over the bunker to an away sloping green.  In summer conditions, even if you managed to carry the bunker you would probably bound through the green into the Swilcan Burn.

You can play the hole short right (to the botom of the false front) and have a pitch or Texas wedge to the pinning area, with a probable 10-20 foot par putt.  Or, you can go long left, with a mirror image, but slightly easier pitch back to the hole.  The entire Swedish Dunhill Cup team tried to do this a few years ago in a misguided attempt at strategy and ended up, like Lemmings, in the burn.

[SPDB]

The only tee change which I believe constitutes a substantive change to the course is the tee on 8. The changes on 4, 10, 15 didn't really change much except added 20 or so yds to the hole, but the angles are the same, so i don't think it creates a big disruption to the design.

[TEPaul]

Very interesting about #8 Piping Rock and I can't wait to see it again--maybe in about six weeks. My recollection of the green was that it was small but that was a long time ago.

Not too sure what you mean that the angle that the hole has now (the drive) was the way the hole was originally designed. You must be referring to TOC's "Road Hole" and its angle. The way Piping's original #8 was designed was with the back tees not that many steps off the 7th green. You walked directly off the left side of #6 green directly at the clubhouse and about 20 paces to the back tee. The tee shot itself was down a fairway that had only the gentlest of swing to the right.

I have no doubt that the hole as it is today is far more demanding and that the tee shot angle is far better. But hitting a green like the one I remember from 200+ would have been a very tall order.

Maybe Doak or Dye or Rich Speer expanded the greenspace on #8 in some way and if that's what was done it would be a very wise and valid architectural move!

[SPDB]

I meant the original in Fife  

[Will E]

I agree, the lines for the shots haven't changed much, the walk from tee to green has. no big deal. Adding length changed the short, didn't it? I understand that #17 is very different today than it once was (before Dye). I really like it, the right pin placement is fantastic. I also read that Doak was peeved that they took away his nose on #10. From what I gather it was right in the landing area. Do you know of a McDonald hole that has a principal's nose?

[SPDB]

Another interesting quirk at PRC is the fairway-wide steep slope that drops the fairway down about five feet on 7. Are there any other examples of this?

[Pete Adams]

Shooter: #6 @ cgc has a principal's nose.

[SPDB]

i'm fairly busy, as you can tell from incessant responding.

The only motivation in moving the tee back on 17 that i can possibly imagine is that it seems as if the green was too large for a Short hole, unless of course they enlarged the green when they brought the tee back. That, in my mind, would amount to a frivolous and irresponsible tinker.

Those bunkers are awesome.

[TEPaul]

I felt the yardage that was added to both #4 and #15 was far more than 20 yards each and my recollection is that those back tees were added quite a number of years ago. I felt at the time that both those additions were not very good and sort of made both holes "disconnect" strategically but that might be because I was young or even because I never did drive it very far--so maybe I'm wrong. I particularly felt this with #4--most of the players I saw playing the hole just couldn't get into the proper position that they used to on that hole--matter of fact most were so far back they could only get a general feel for where the green was.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

I'll be out of action from October 19th for two weeks, so if we could do it prior to that date it would be great, thanks.

[Ran Morrissett]

Tom,

The name of the 13th hole is The Knoll.

Also, the Piping Rock course profile has two good pictures of the Road Hole complex, to jog your memory, but the green is hardly small.

Sean,

My understanding is that Doak/Dye did expand the 17th green when the hole was lengthened. The lower right hole locations are interesting ones to chase but it should no longer be called a Short hole. I wonder if having a short iron into both the 17 and 18 was behind the desire to lengthen the 17th?

Isn't Piping Rock's Biarritz an inspired hole?! And I would say that their Alps is one of the finest in this country, perhaps behind only the 3rd at NGLA and the Alps/Punchbowl combo at Fishers.

Cheers,

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